Honest…..to goodness, some thoughts on lying

I almost never use examples from my own life to illustrate things we discuss in the sphere. One time I did it recently I started getting advice on how to handle the situation. That’s not the point of the post. Its to use an example to illustrate something i do not believe i could explain as a concept. here goes:

 

My wife fades in and out of old habits. Yesterday was the wrong day to fade in, but she did. Some dialog occured that afforded a teaching moment. I decided to show her that she was lying. She perhaps didn’t realize it….I say that’s a “gift” women have, but I insisted that she needed to stop, listen, and know that she, a woman who will offer an hour long impromptu discourse on integrity, uses tricks to lie to herself and to others.

I knew that today, Thursday, she was to have a couple of friends over. In fact, Tuesday night I was going to run to the store and get cat food, she asked that I not bother, because she was going Wednesday,  since two of her  friends were coming to our house Thursday. I asked, “you sure?” Yes. she said she would go. ( I know she’d be more apt to go because of her friends coming, if it was just general grocering it would be procrastinated) I do not know why, but she occasionally gets very invested in things like this, where she for some reason is adamant I NOT go or do the thing I am about to do, a thing that is a chore I willingly happily would go do. Used to be I’d just not go, keeping the peace. Past 10 years I don’t even tell her where I’m going or what I’m doing, and just go do the errand. But Tuesday evening I did not go.

Yesterday (Wednesday) I came home and found my wife in the back yard working. She had gone to Lowe’s, bought a bunch of mulch and plants, and was creating two new beds in the back yard. We had just, the day before, said we needed to lighten up on spending $. I asked her, “you did that because your friends are coming Thursday (the next day) right?”. “Oh no, you know Ive wanted to do this for a long time, its been on my long term list for awhile”
I said, with a smile, “look at me…..you are lying”. “You may not consider it such, but you are lying. Now, it was about the friends right?” She grins that I’d busted her (in her mind) cute little fib. But she insisted tha,t well, if you were to assign %’s to the reason, the biggest % was NOT about her friends. She was still lying, even more cleverly, because I cannot argue objectively about %’s in that case.

I moved on.

Later I asked about the $. She says yes we discussed that yesterday, BUT, apparently months ago we’d had a conversation and I’d agreed two beds would be nice to add, so, therefore, in her mind, it “didn’t count”. Then I notice tile samples on the counter. “YES”, she said, “I want to put up back splashes in the kitchen”. Same argument, we’d once waxed dreamily about it, hence, not covered. Those old discussions were of the sort you’d have when you say things like “someday it would be nice to have a cabin in the mountains”….concepts, idle chatter, heck I didn’t even know we’d had or not had a talk about flower beds and back splashes, but I guess we did.

Meanwhile I learn from my 8 yr old that the friends cancelled, we’d have no visitors Thursday (today)

So, I asked, “by the way, did you happen to get to the store for cat food”

“No, after all the yard work I decided Id go the next day”

I say, “let me ask, and please be honest, if the friends were still coming tomorrow, you’d be headed there this evening to get groceries right?”‘

In true faded-IN fashion she said, “I’m done with this conversation, you just want to argue” She added, “besides look at how much money you spend on e books from Amazon”….a completely incongruous remark at this point in the conversation as we were discussing the grocery trip, but it served her need to get a work in about $.

Busted in a third lie. I hear this kind of lying a lot from women, even to each other. I hate it. I hate it even more when the women get very animated on the topic of honesty and say “the one thing I cannot stand it lying”

To illustrate how toxic this is, my 23 year old daughter was there and she asked if we’d please just drop the subject, she didn’t like the arguments and would have to leave if it continued because it stressed her out. She saw nothing but arguing. She saw no issue whatsoever in the incident….just two silly people disagreeing. There were no raised voices or harsh words, nevertheless, I don’t want my daughter to feel badly when she is visiting. Besides it was clear there was no outcome to be had in the discourse that would not involve just more meandering tricks that seem to arise from the female mind like instinct.

But the wife had found her weapon. The e book buying thing seemed to have been late, but better late than never, and she wanted me to acknowledge it. I didn’t say anything else on the matter.

Now, suppose this happened all the time. And suppose it led to marriage counseling. Would a counselor call out the lies? Would he or she even think they were lies? If they did, would they wink and chuckle at the innocence of them and ask me to lighten up? Or would the counselor rebuke the man for being argumentative? Heaven forbid she did this daily, cornering the man amidst a growing maelstrom of unrelated statements that the wife’s face reveals she sees as game changers. And he then raised his voice.

ABUUUUZZZERRR, the wife and a chorus of friends would conclude. Soon, like those exercises when you pass a sentence around the room as kids, the woman would be in jeopardy of her very life if she stays one more minute.

This is not about the incident described. its not about some dialog I might have chosen to handle the thing differently. It is me asserting that what I just described is default communication mode for the vast majority of women I’ve ever known. It is me asserting that “would you rather win the argument or stay married” is one of the stupidest pieces of advice ever given. Its stupid because its harmful and toxic, yes, but its also stupid because the person offering that advice up would quickly see the issue as one where the couple involved needed to:

Agree on a budget

Assign grocery shopping more structurally to the parties

Learn how to communicate without harshness

Etc.

In other words, they would see the most superficial things about the scenario, label it trivial, and offer insights that are basic and inane while delivering it as if they were describing how to diffuse a neutron bomb that’s been left in your driveway.

Oh, and they would remind the man that, after all, women are so much more verbal and better at communicating,….yuk yuk yuk….we should never engage them in disagreement because we cannot compete.

This post describes something that happens in the majority of marriages. It shows the source of the woman’s unhappiness when she files a frivorce. Maybe she is internally conflicted knowing she is being disingenuous. Or, more likely, she and whichever friends hear the stories from her lather each other up spilling this brand of hell on earth into other homes as the women feed off each others righteous anger.

After the church starts telling women, plainly, do not divorce, it would be good for them to wade into this topic. “Women, how to make yourself way less of a pain in the ass to deal with”.

 

Advertisements

69 thoughts on “Honest…..to goodness, some thoughts on lying

  1. Not being married, I cannot offer any personal experiences regarding my wife lying to me in such a fashion. However, my mom did this in the past, and in fact still does it. I have taken to either calling her on it or walking away in such a manner that she knows I haven’t fallen for it.

    My suspicion is that this passive-aggressive behavior (which this is) is baked into the female mind and a product of their overall desire to avoid overt, direct conflict.

  2. I can explain the late retort about the money, at least from my perspective.

    When my husband approaches me calmly, asking reasonable questions which I cannot answer truthfully in any way that might vindicate me, I am caught like a deer in headlights. So if I spent when I wasn’t supposed to spend and “the talk” ensues in the language of logic, it takes me a little bit longer to remember that he broke the rule, too. My mind is translating the discourse in the language of panic, and in that language I’m thinking, “How can I save myself?” not “How can I find a way to catch him too?”

    Now if we start in the language of panic (otherwise known as emotion, the female native tongue), and he raises his voice or kicks into rant-lite mode, I can think faster. It wouldn’t take me 2 seconds to remember that he spent $75 on tools the week after we decided to cut back spending $.

    ABUUUUZZZERRR, the wife and a chorus of friends would conclude. Soon, like those exercises when you pass a sentence around the room as kids, the woman would be in jeopardy of her very life if she stays one more minute.

    I know that wasn’t supposed to be funny, but I laughed anyway. I tend to do that.

  3. This post and the green grass one encapsulate the empathological genius, mon vieux. The green grass one is still rattling my brain. I wish I were better at recognizing the downhill slides, the “curtain closings” as they’re happening, but I’m getting better.

  4. “Besides it was clear there was no outcome to be had in the discourse” but if you gave up and walked away you would be accused of stonewalling. Men are the designated losers in all relationships with all women who refuse to accommodate.

  5. @donalgraeme, re: “their overall desire to avoid overt, direct conflict.”! This is one evidence of your naiveté. Women who know they will not be physically harmed *immediately* escalate *every* battle of wills to where the man has no choice but to smack her in the mouth or be “walking away in such a manner” (lol lol at “such a manner”). You can’t even mumble to yourself while walking away.

  6. Empath:
    I’ve learned over the years that women are compulsive and pathological liars. They often won’t tell the truth, even when it’s to their own benefit to do so.

    It’s like PMS. If you want a relationship with a woman, you just have to learn to live with it because you’ll never change them. Corrective measures like you described in the article will never work because then they’ll just lie even more out of fear being caught.

    Probably the best way to deal with lying women is take them into the bedroom and administer some good old-fashioned Rudolph Valentino/Sheik style punishment. Of course, some women will enjoy that enough to encourage more lying in HOPES of getting caught; but at least that will make it enjoyable LOL

  7. jf12 is correct about the misconception of women disliking conflict. They LOVE it if its held at a low level, where they are permitted to speak endlessly and ultimately frustrate the man until the issue can become him, his tone, his posture, his guilt of some other grievance…..or they make a statement that is very cleverly related to the topic at hand, but not germane to the specific issue regarding the topic that is being discussed.

    A silly simple example I can make up quickly would be she is nagging the man he needs to change her cars oil now….today….this time. Its been 2000 miles and he waits 5000 every time. they argue and she brings up the neighbors and her sisters and all manner of crap, then finally she smugly says “if you don’t ever change a cars oil the engine can be ruined”. She makes a true statement, related to the topic, irrelevant to the debate. In my experience any response is considered, now, arguing with that statement she made that was true.

    On rare occasion I hear a man do that and tell them they are arguing like a female

  8. I agree with Eric. Women just lie. They lie for the most insignificant reasons. My wife does it. My daughter does it. My mother does it. They tell me something to my face. I know it’s a lie. They know I know it’s a lie. Doesn’t matter. Women lie for convenience and are surprised and outraged that you see anything wrong with it. One more indication that women have no understanding of the male concept of honor.

  9. My wife fits the described pattern. Hammers endlessly on some innocuous fault of mine. When I combat the arguement with logic I am being “Defensive”. When I back her into a logical corner she lies her way out of it or escalates to yelling. She knows I don’t like the screaming (due to abusive father issues) so it is her fallback method of arguement.

    I recently discovered that if she starts yelling I can stand very close to her and it violates her personal space. Surprise! … she doesn’t like it so it is an unacceptable behavior. we are going to run a little experiment to see if this cuts down on the screaming.

  10. I really, truly do not like conflict with my husband at all. My whole day is ruined if he is displeased with me. I’m like that kid who knows what it means when his parents give him “the look”.

  11. To be more honest (LOL), if I thought I could get away with this:

    <blockquote permitted to speak endlessly and ultimately frustrate the man until the issue can become him, his tone, his posture, his guilt of some other grievance

    I might not be so given to avoiding conflict with my husband. My father wouldn’t let my stepmother do it either so I’ve never really lived in an environment where a woman did this kind of thing willy nilly.

  12. @Elspeth re: “wouldn’t let”. Please describe the operational procedures the man uses to force the woman to stifle it. Or simply admit it’s the woman’s choice and has nothing to do with the man letting or not letting.

  13. Yeah well done in this post, and good examples.

    However I really want to point to “Would you rather win the argument or stay married?” THAT is a good example of what I’m referring to in part when I say ‘men should be prepared to accept divorce as an outcome.’ I think that THAT is an example of what leads to the ‘yes dear’ phenomenon.

    I think this is very important. When I and other men around here are talking about authority, we don’t mean “Achtung, baby!” We mean THAT—the authority that we are supposed to have inherently as believers to be firm in the truth even if it costs us. Marriage CANNOT be more important than that or the Gospel is untrue.

  14. @ jf12:

    I don’t have an answer for you. I have just never felt free to act like a crazy woman. Maybe it is my choice, but truthfully it doesn’t feel like it’s my choice. It feels like if I start down that road, I’m going to pay a price for it. Maybe it’s all in my head, but it is what it is.

    I’ve been in that uncomfortable position (in the very early years) of acting out and then not knowing where my husband is for the next 6 hours or more. Cell phones were not commonplace in 1994.

    I know what it is to snap at my husband on the phone and then have my calls dismissed for the few hours (or the next day if he’s out of town).

    You want me to say that the husband has no real authority or ability to help steer his wife onto a more mature way of relating. That may be true for most husbands. It is just not how things go around here.

    It’s not how things went in my house growing up. My stepmother would verbalize the fact that she “couldn’t” do a thing because my father wouldn’t like it. She felt as if she “couldn’t” disrespect him.

    Ultimately I suppose you’re right. It is a choice we make. It’s a choice I make because I actually care what my husband thinks of me and I don’t want him to displeased with me. So I behave, at least I do 4/5 of the time. LOL.

  15. it doesn’t feel like it’s my choice.

    I should elaborate on my reply to you, jf12. It didn’t feel as it is ONLY my choice. At least not now. I was a young, immature bride and at the beginning I very much felt compelled to behave lest I run my young husband off by acting like just another angry, independent woman. He was never one to even pretend even slightly as if he was going to participate in being my pet project, so I had to choose if I was going to get with his program of risk not having him at all.

    As we have grown up and it seems clear enough that we are both in this for the long haul, it is more of a choice that I make. To do what’s right because it is right. But even with that, I still feel as if he won’t “let me” trample all over him. Because he isn’t.

    Is he going to divorce me? Nope. I highly doubt it, even if I suddenly decide to be rebellious. But my life isn’t going to be pleasant and happy go lucky in the meantime. That much I know for sure.

  16. I went through a discussion along the same lines recently in terms of justification. Wife and I are out driving on our “lovely” roads. We’re coming to a gravel patch on the highway and she lines up on the wheel ruts and *BAAAM! hits the huge pothole at the edge of the pavement at 55 mph. Cord-breaking level impact.

    I quickly asserted “You DROVE RIGHT INTO IT!” with a good deal of irritation. Now she starts driving EXTRA careful. Passive aggressively so. Clearly, I have backseat driven and now I will pay. I apologize for snapping at her. Not good enough. After several more minutes of this she reminds me that I hit some washboard (on a very rural gravel road) the evening before and that she didn’t say anything. So what we are waiting for is an apology for the backseat driving.

    I don’t know how many times I’ve politely explained a pet peeve (as I was driving) of people who insist on keeping the center of their vehicle precisely over the center of their lane no matter what. Drive through potholes, check. Drive into pothole patches and sling cold-mix patching all over, check. Drive on oil that is obviously bleeding through a fresh patch, check. Offsetting you wheels is generally a very good technique when driving over rough roads in Alaska.

    No apology coming. It would be like me doing one of her pet peeves and then expect an apology for nagging when she corrected me. Or telling her that she did one of my pet peeves and I stayed quiet about it (until right then). The riffing over the form of communication AND the quick comparison of black marks in the book are not what EITHER of us want to build our marriage on. I guess I’m just a meanie.

  17. @Elspeth re: “I had to choose if I was going to get with his program of risk not having him at all.”

    Ok. Thanks.

  18. For the record Jf, the man I married was not a Christian. As much as he loved me, I had no expectation that he would respond as a Christian.

    Now he is a Christian, and while he falls far, far short of what Sojourner subscribes to, he does not believe that the most Christian way to respond to selfish, self-centered craziness on my part is to just put up with it and pray.

    So even though he isn’t going anywhere, I still don’t get to just do whatever as if he has no authority. I have a question for you though.

    Why is it that you are so utterly convinced that it is impossible for a husband to have any authority in his own home? That he is at his wife’s whims with no recourse? I understand about the legal stuff, but you need to walk me through what you’re saying because I am not convinced that because most men are afraid of their wives emotions and afraid of what she *might* do, that it means she has all the power. If she does, it’s at least in part because he gave it to her.

  19. @ God is laughing
    That is what you get for letting her drive. If you are in a car together and you haven’t just gotten out of major surgery- be in the drivers seat.

  20. re: “I am not convinced that because most men are afraid of their wives emotions and afraid of what she *might* do, that it means she has all the power.”

    No, I don’t think the real problem has anything to do with men fearing their wives (I certainly don’t, for example), but instead the lack of wives fearing their husbands. It is through her fearlessness that she has all the power of her own whimsy and that there is no real recourse for him. His fear or nonfear has nothing to do with it.

    But yes in my case, I gave her the gift of fearlessness, and not just in part.

  21. @amanhiswife, I feels like some venting. My tummy hurts, among other things. Anyway, re: “letting her drive”. One of the reasons I always drive my wife, besides me being a better driver than she is, is that she becomes egomaniacal with the least bit of power. Plus, almost always I drop her off at doors at such so I’m a servant-chauffer as well. The problem is I’m also a better passenger than she is, since she passenger-seat drives and all that.

    An example of her driving was when she took me to work in her car the other week because my pickup was in the shop. As usual, she has to control my passenger side air temp (I wanted it colder) even though her driver’s side controls made her side fine for her. But when I drive her car, she fiddles with her passenger side controls to her heart’s content.

  22. but instead the lack of wives fearing their husbands.

    You’re not making sense. When I suggested that a reverential fear of my husband (totally Biblical, by the way) was a large part of the impetus for my obedience, you said that this was not because he has any authority that can be exercised, that it was solely by my choice.

    So which is it? Can a wife fear her husband and her husband have authority and exercise it, or not?

  23. Elspeth I can comment in agreement with jf12’s position. I know my friend Cane would disagree. I don’t know if its some kind of numbers thing, but this kind of thing, though far less than it once was, will likely always be part of my life.

    It is not reality nor is it productive to keep hammering on (not that you are doing this Elspeth) what men can do to manage this. Before the retort even starts, it is neither productive for men to wallow in complaining. That is, however, some weird kind of blame shift that even some of the most strident male writers fall into when they cannot let down their guard and acknowledge another man who has violence or murder as his recourse to correct the situation.

    Sadly when you read between the lines these little things are not root causes, but near the root, of big time marital discord

  24. That is, however, some weird kind of blame shift that even some of the most strident male writers fall into when they cannot let down their guard and acknowledge another man who has violence or murder as his recourse to correct the situation.

    You’re going to have to break this down for my inferior female intellect. Because I am more than certain that I am misinterpreting it.

  25. @empathologism, re: “Before the retort even starts, it is neither productive for men to wallow in complaining.”

    True. I suppose, like a gallstone, the irritation is supposed to drive us to DO something. Instead of like a kidney stone.

  26. @Elspeth

    I’ve only followed here a little while, but I think I know what they’re saying.

    A person has real authority primarily to the extent that he can force someone to do what they’re told, even when they don’t want to. Parents have authority because they can force a child to go somewhere against their will. Military superiors have authority because they can force you to do various duties you don’t want to do.

    In both these cases, there is a mechanism for the relationship to continue even though the subordinate does not want to do what they’re being told to do. The subordinate can’t simply choose to sever the relationship at the point where they don’t want to do what’s being asked of them. This is because the relationship they have entered into with the authority figure is not dependent on them wanting to continue to be under that authority at every individual moment. Either they are in a relation that means the authority figure is responsible for them, or they have previously chosen to make a commitment to be under an authority, possibly for a specified amount of time, regardless of what may be asked of them in the future.

    Modern marriages do not give this authority to the husband. Let’s say a wife doesn’t want to do what her husband asks — for example, he is leading her somewhere while on vacation and she gets upset and tries to run off. Unlike the above examples, the husband is not recognized to have the authority to physically restrain her, even if it’s for her own good. If he does so he may end up being arrested. He will certainly be arrested if his wife wants him to, and possibly even if she doesn’t if onlookers call the cops.

    Thus, her obedience to him is strictly at her own choice. She may choose not to obey at any time. This may result in damage to her relationship with him (as disobedience by the child or military subordinate would damage their relationship with their superiors), but she does not have to submit to his authority unless she chooses to do so, because he can’t force her to do anything without inviting arrest. In our current legal climate, it is not possible for a wife to give her husband the sort of authority that the parent or military superior has. Even if a woman crafted specialized vows specifically giving this authority to her husband, courts would not recognize it (at least not if she later didn’t want it recognized).

    If the woman wants to remain with her husband, then the damage to her relationship that would follow her disobedience may be enough to dissuade her from that course of action. Of course, not disappointing your parent or superior is a fine reason for not being disobedient; but in addition to that, disobedience is not allowed by your authority in those cases — their authority has actual force behind it, i.e. you can be forced to do what you ought to do by those authority figures. A wife does not have this additional and important restraint on her in this day and age.

  27. @Elspeth

    That is, however, some weird kind of blame shift that even some of the most strident male writers fall into when they cannot let down their guard and acknowledge another man who has violence or murder as his recourse to correct the situation.

    I’m not sure, but I think he means that: If ManA complains and ManB responds to ManA that complaining doesn’t do any good, then ManB is shifting blame to ManA for ManA’s wife’s crime. This is because ManA’s wife will not respond to anything short of violence.

    As Empath has rightly surmised: I disagree.

    However; I can imagine slapping offenses.

  28. I know what you mean about women and their misdirection and lying. It’s just a built in problem in the system. Women struggle with the truth more than men, because they filter truth through their emotions first, which makes them less objective.

    In a way, they are not really lying. They are telling the truth to the extent that they are able to perceive it. This is why God established men as head of the household.

  29. Jack, I think you are being too kind. My observation is that women use lies as a social lubricant. They knowingly lie to each other and to men all the time in order to avoid conflict/confrontation, not because they are afraid, but because it is easier. They all do this and consider it normal. That’s why they are puzzled an react defensively when a man calls them on it. They are thinking, “Why are you being so unreasonable?” This also explains their ability to detect lies from men so easily. They are used to operating in “lie rich” female environment. Takes one to know one.

  30. @Bradford, the two-step female dance isn’t as complex as some portray it. Here’s how the female justification for lying goes:
    It’s not ok to speak a lie, but it is ok to speak feelings. And it is ok for feelings not to line up with reality; that’s what feelings are for, and besides I’m a woman, so it’s only to be expected that my feelings are goofy! So because I’m a woman, it is ok that what I say does not line up with reality. And you’re a big meanie for pointing that out.

  31. @ Cane:

    That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

    Of course I’m assuming that your explanation would match up with Empath’s. Either way, it makes sense to me.

  32. A thought that came to my head when reading this article.

    Do women think we like be lied to?

    I don’t know if they consider telling the truth to be a weakness or some type of female “game” when in marriage but being lied to destroys trust in the marriage.

    “Trust is earned. Not given.”

    Even in divorce when women sudden gets up files for divorce and tell their husband that they weren’t happy after constantly telling him everything was fine. Explains why so many are so derailed when the wife suddenly leaves.

  33. Elspeth yes it lines up

    Cane, the expression “weird form of blame shifting” was not sufficient to be clear that I am not suggesting the writer IS blame shifting. I just cant think of another term for it.
    And it takes far more than just saying that complaining isn’t doing any good to be what i am describing. Id agree complaining doesn’t do any good. Id say that.

    The simple fact is that women in vast numbers are wearing men out, wearing them down, and while the men have no excuse for being torn down, I am not trying to find an excuse for the men. Talking about what the women are doing, especially in a conceptual way, I would think affirms men and lets them see that their house is not as bad as they thought it was relative to others. it actually then tamps down complaining.

    I dont like going down this road with you because it becomes a sort of rhetorical cul de sac. So Im putting cones out to keep the kids safe in case some guy speeds into it

  34. Pingback: The Father Of Lies, The Truth And An Opinion About Them. | Rise of Death's Son

  35. Bradford & Jf12:
    There actually is no reason for their lying at all: it just comes over them like a reflex.

    It’s an incorrigible part of their psychology—like thug-chasing. Men/Husbands just have to learn to control it, because they can’t stop it from happening.

  36. Empath:
    I’m going to send you an e-mail tonight or tomorrow—just make sure you sitting down and have some coffee before you read it! lol

  37. @Eric

    “There actually is no reason for their lying at all: it just comes over them like a reflex. ”

    Lying is a reflex for some men.
    Stealing is reflex for some men.
    Rape is a reflex for some men.
    Killing is a reflex for some men.

    “It’s an incorrigible part of their psychology—like thug-chasing. Men/Husbands just have to learn to control it, because they can’t stop it from happening.”

    By your measure, Society just has to learn to control it, SUCK IT UP society, deal with it, some men just have to kill…..

    By your measure no one is accountable for their actions.

    What a farce.

  38. Bodichi

    Welcome

    I can’t follow your progression at all. It’s defensive……yes? It’s an attempt to rebuke the statement of one genders proclivity by stating the others, though making them ever increasing in severity……for effect?

    But your premise seems incorrect. Eric is not throwing off responsibility, he is not excuse making, he is not saying that’s just the way it is and it can’t be fixed, and there is simply no need for the comments about me whatsoever.

    He is suggesting that something is reflexive, or I say instinctive! because the nature of the lying that my post is about is not something that a person could strategize and have at the ready or be so clever as to find those loosely related points to drag in for the faux score.

    I went and read your comment yet again. I’m assuming you were irritated by the time you got to Eric’s comment because I just cannot find anything that is a jumping off point for all that hyperbole

    I’ve started shutting my wife down every time she does it. I is p,y say, you are lying again. I walk her through how it is lying. Sometimes she gets it, others not, but I do not put up with it. I disengage and move on. If on the phone, I politely say talk to you later and close the phone.

    It’s amazing how Christian women will get into an integrity chanting session. Go to Christian forums and watch. Stay a day or two and you will see them lie their rear ends off. It’s expedient to lie. Most lies are expedient. The man lying about coming home late is being expedient. It’s a straightforward lie. But this thing I’m describing is very different and it’s what women are on about when they (along with male cheerleaders) boast of their superior verbal skills. There is nothing superior about it. Imagine how effective it would be in designing an aircraft or a Bridge.

    You

  39. Bodichi:
    I don’t follow your reasoning, because society DOES in fact, recognize that some men are driven to kill, steal, and rape and DOES control such behaviors through law enforcement. But that’s a much different thing than inter-personal relationships.

    Probably most women—especially ones with religious training—know that they SHOULDN’T lie, but do anyway. Back in the 1920s, psychologist Alfred Adler found a correlation between compulsive, or pathological, lying and harsh, strict upbringings as children. I would extrapolate from that that women—because of their weaker biology and generally more timid and submissive natures likely retain a genetic disposition to fear men and their reflexive lying is simply a predisposition inherent in females. Their propensity to chase criminal dirtbags and limp-wristed metrosexuals I think also stems from that same source: a biological bent to fear strong men and seek ‘safety’ in a weaker one. Feminism has aggravated these tendencies by interjecting considerable misandry—or false justification for those primordial fears—into the equation.

    I’m not arguing that men can or should do nothing; only that should understand its causes and realize there are limits to how much they can control it.

  40. @ERIC

    So your assertion is that prison is control? Your example is that some men are going to kill, etc and then society must punish them through prison, death sentence etc?

    Here is where your farce enters galactic proportions. A woman’s lies receive no punishment.

    By your account they are instinctive and cannot be prevented. Fine. Then also by your reckoning they must be dealt with, meaning absorbed, or allowed, talked about. Not one mention of punishment of women lying. No instead you obfuscate with this..

    “I’m not arguing that men can or should do nothing; only that should understand its causes and realize there are limits to how much they can control it.”

    So in the first comment, you say it cannot be controlled (the lying), indeed you say it is instinctive. Fine, it is uncontrollable. Then it must be punished. No, you screech! We must deal with it.

    Do you have any idea what lying under oath is? It is called perjury. It is a crime.
    The 9th commandment clearly says “thou shalt not lie.”
    Most children are punished via corporal punishment “spanking” for lies.

    Yet you, in your infinite wisdom say that lies from women are like rain, uncontrollable, unstoppable, not -punishable, and must simply be dealt with…. Maybe put on a rain coat.
    Once again. What a farce.

    @Empath
    None of my comments are for you, or aimed at you, all were at Eric.

  41. Bodichi:
    “A woman’s lies receive no punishment.”

    Are you seriously arguing that a wife lying to her husband deserves the same punishment as murdering him? If you’re trying to argue this from a Christian standpoint, you’re coming across as a fanatic and not a rational person. That there are degrees of sin has been recognized by the Church since the beginning.

    Yes, it’s ALL sin and yes, ALL men and women have propensities to sin. Recognizing and rising above it is what Christians are supposed to do. Are you suggesting instead that Empath should drag his wife before some kind of tribunal that proscribes her punishment? That might be fine for Radical Islam; but doesn’t strike me as especially Christian.

    “Not one mention of punishment for women lying.”

    No, in my first comment on this thread, I said that her punishment was her husband’s responsibility.

    “No you screech! We must deal with it!”

    OK, you moron: how does a man logically ‘deal with it’ except by calling it out and punishing it? My point is here that men need to recognize that women usually lie on impulse and not out of malice, and they do so reflexively, so correcting their behavior should take that into account.
    In Empath’s example, I think he handled it well; his wife lying about a trip to the store doesn’t rate a beating with rubber hoses or something—which seems to be where you’re going with this.

  42. As I pointed out at Dalrock, feminism is unrestrained sin disguised as a “human right”. Do men lie, certainly. Do they rape, clearly. Do they have a dominant cultural affirmation to do so? Absolutely not. Anybody whose sins are ignored and even encouraged is expected to what? Become a saint?

    For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
    (2Co 10:3-6)

    Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
    (Isa 5:20-21)

  43. GIL:
    St. John relates a story of how the Pharisees brought an adulterous woman Christ and demanded he impose the death penalty. Christ taught, through an example that only the Sinless can give or take life. And to the woman He said “Go and sin no more.”

    What the pinhead above is arguing is essentially the same as the Pharisees’ line of reasoning.

    Recognition of sin and determining to overcome it is what the duty of Christian is. That women have an especial propensity to lying doesn’t mean it’s excused: it means they need the strength of a man to help overcome it if she would strive towards Christian perfection.

    That women need male guidance in overcoming sin is so pronounced that in Roman Catholicism, even a woman who becomes a nun doesn’t take the same vow of chastity as a male monk, but becomes spiritually ‘married to Christ’. That of course is not to be understood in the sexual sense, but in the sense that even a woman who has renounced the world for Christ still needs to submit to a male for spiritual growth.

  44. @ERIC

    Ad hominem much?

    “What the pinhead above”
    “OK, you moron”

    And now a straw man

    “In Empath’s example, I think he handled it well; his wife lying about a trip to the store doesn’t rate a beating with rubber hoses or something—which seems to be where you’re going with this.”

    So you are going to use ad hominem attacks against me and then set up a straw man argument. You are obviously arguing disingenuously.

    Never once was “stoning” or “rubber hoses” mentioned, except by you.

    It seems as if you solution is to talk it out, after every lie? That about right? That work when your kids disobey you? You never punish them, just keep talking to them about it?

    All of society is set to empower women to lie, and to guilt men into accepting their lie, allowing it, and not punishing it.

  45. @Bodichi, you’re in the “manosphere” now. As a woman you will not be given the benefit of a doubt my most guys. It will be somewhat reciprocal of a guy going into a college “Survivors of Rape” group, with suspicion. If you don’t let this bother you I’m sure that you will learn a lot and make some good (online) friends here. You aren’t on the normal feminist turf here.

  46. Bodichi:
    “Ad hominem much”

    No—if you’re going to act like a moron and a pinhead, don’t be surprised if someone notices it.

    “Never once was beating and rubber hoses suggested…”

    It was drawn by inference, since you haven’t bothered to explain what you would do instead. And when you say things like: “talking doesn’t work!” “most children are punished by spanking!” and rampaging that perjury and lying are the same things and need to be punished accordingly—what other inference could be drawn?

    So why don’t you enlighten us all, with your own ‘infinite wisdom’ and explain how female should be handled?

  47. Correcting a woman is another issue. It’s proven with Empath’s wife’s attempt to push blame or the conversation in another direction. I’ve encounter this as well and found it quite interesting to correct them. In some cases, I’ve found some to be in-correctable. If roles are reversed, its the same way in some cases.

  48. Re: Elspeth’s blog. Sorry to comment here, but it’s relevant. A woman’s expression of unhappiness is ALWAYS to manipulate her husband. And it’s simply and completely an untruth that the vast majority of women will EVER get over ANYTHING; they will bring stuff back up from twenty years ago all the time. All the time, without letup.

  49. jf12:

    Dude…seriously? It just makes so much more sense to leave your comment on my blog. I’m not going to hold you hostage there, I promise.

  50. @Elspeth, it’s not that I don’t trust you, I just, I dunno. I feel spread out, as well as a wee bit of paranoia.

    I’m not trying to be the designated downer but your article, outlining why you feel men are to blame for putting too much importance on their wives’ feelings, touched one of my nerves (maybe the sciatic). I felt I had to, like Empath, express what I felt about the mischaracterization of wives’ behaviors and their husbands’ responses.

    I think we agree that the problem is that women put too much emphasis upon their own feelings. Your proposed solution, i.e. for him to ignore her until she shuts up, works fine *provided* she eventually laughs at herself for putting too much emphasis on her feelings. But that laughing never occurs in reality. In reality, she will eventually stop yapping about whatever trivial thing she’s yapping about, but ONLY because she found something else to yap about, and she *will* return to the previous yapping.

    Your idea, that she will get over it, is aspirational, i.e. prescriptive not descriptive. Yes, she *ought* to get over it (and, I hasten to add, sooner rather than later). But she won’t.

    It is never, or maybe extremely unicorn rarely seldom if ever, the case that the *husband* places too much importance on his wife’s feelings. He *knows* they are changeable, and stupid for the most part. But he always has to keep in mind the importance to *her* of her own feelings.

  51. I add here that although my wife has a photographic memory for her feelings, I consider that too typical for women.

  52. I hate to play the snowflake card, I really do. But as much as I am “like that” with respect to much of what is said about women, the whole feelings thing? It just ain’t me. I let stuff go, and pretty quickly.

    I admit I had a leg up on that as a fairly rocky childhood does one of two things: It makes you appreciate small blessings and blow off minor lights, or it makes you feel entitled to all good feelings because it’s about time you get what you wanted. For me it was the former. No time to wallow in negativity and negative feelings over stupid stuff. Life’s too short.

    That said, I truly believe that any woman can learn to put er feelings in the proper perspective, and that her husband can help her by simply refusing to be an emotional hostage at the mercy of her emotional terrorism.

    Yes. I know you (and Empath) disagree vehemently.

  53. re: “I truly believe that any woman can learn to put er feelings in the proper perspective, and that her husband can help her by simply refusing to be an emotional hostage at the mercy of her emotional terrorism.”

    I appreciate your sympathetic directness, I really do, but I played this exact card on Monday. It’s a losing card. My wife had been blathering about how her sister had been accusing another relative of accusing her (the sister) of favoring one grandchild over another grandchild, and forcing me to sit through a blow-by-blow misreading of facebook posts over multiple people who have blocked some of each other cliquishly, with particular attention to how my wife had expressed her feelings to other relatives “And then she said … so I said … but then the other she said …” I had tried to cut her off after letting her vent for a couple minutes, then after the second time of telling her I had heard enough for now, I got up and walked away. She accused me of abuse from neglect, and I told her exactly this: I was not going to be held hostage to her feelings. I never have been before, and she has never been given any reason to think that I ever would.

    But *despite* the lack of reinforcement of that behavior, it continues. Her placing of too much importance on her own feelings has *nothing* to do with me.

  54. Elspeth, commenting here because your thread has moved on.

    First, you moved the goal post with this:

    That said, I truly believe that any woman can learn to put er feelings in the proper perspective, and that her husband can help her by simply refusing to be an emotional hostage at the mercy of her emotional terrorism.

    That is unlike you to fall into that cheap a trick….(I say respectfully). I had not been suggesting that a woman cannot do it. If I do weigh on on her ability to do so, however, Id say it is by degrees. She can mitigate this. It is the snowflake who can shut this down. Those few women Ive known, and have referred to here before as rare gems a friend or two married or some other acquaintance through family etc., I remember those times when Ive seen the feelings-as-primacy thing manifest in them and how profound it seemed to me and how disappointed I was.

    Ive had a rough patch of this lately. Since the incident in the post, and my breakthrough to boldly stating, LIES, in the face of what I’m starting to see as a pattern of dishonesty. It ebbs and flows. Its peaking now for some reason.

    You mentioned the angel and Pharisee etc. The issue there isn’t one or the other, its which ever one is useful at that moment. I’m seeing dishonesty or at least disingenuous dialog everywhere. There is this edge of suspicion in the tone a wife can take that can make a man wonder, what the hell is she on about. Not suspicion of infidelity, just suspicion, as if there are nefarious forces at work in the most innocent things. its a low vibration of stress inducing static constantly crackling.

    For example, yesterday I received two calls at work from home, in the afternoon. I am glad to get calls at work, never a problem. The first one was pleasant. 15 minutes later,

    Me: “hello”
    Ms Emp: “why was there a tube of antibiotic ointment in the bed?”
    Me: “huh?”
    Ms Emp: “I found a tube of Neosporin in our bed, wrapped in a tee shirt”
    Me: “I dunno, why, whats the issue”
    Ms Emp: “I asked you if you had some and you said no the other day”

    It went on for 5 minutes, like an interrogation. I had no idea why there was a tube in the bed, but I figured it out later. Id emptied my computer case on the bed after a trip and there is a pocket with band aids and hand sanitizer and antibiotic cream etc. Must have not put it back. But worse, I had not said I didn’t have any, I had said look in my left side vanity drawer. It was a lie for leverage, that Id said I had none. I don’t know if she wakes it up or really believes it. I have no idea leverage for what. I asked her, what evil plot is indicated by a tube of ointment in the bed? Now, know this, there IS an answer to that question, she had some crazy thing in mind, but she disingenuously avoided saying so by suggesting Id lied and said I had no ointment. This is all crazy stuff. And its all a facade for something else. It could simply be for power, power gained by finding some perceived moral infraction and the moral superiority that goes with it…..I have no real idea. It builds momentum as she presses ahead in a battle that has no clear contentious issue at stake.

    I come home, we were to attend fireworks. I haven’t the patience to write out the dialog but it was one thing after another, bickering back, arguing, LYING.
    The other interesting one was, Wednesday night a friend of my 17 year old son, who had moved away few years back, was visiting and spent the night. I didn’t know it, I didn’t see the boy, no one told me, etc. Next day wife says of course I knew, that I had actually spoken with the boy the night before. Ive been down this hush hush sweet Charlotte road with her before, years ago, and I know her angle. So the boy was here later and in front of her i said , “Oh, hey Joe good to see you, you and I did not speak or see each other at all since youve been here right”

    He looked at me strangely and said , uh, no. I said ok, because my wife insisted you and I spoke. It embarrassed her.

    She is entering menopause so I make some allowance. But it is getting where I avoid her.

    I don’t write these things because invariably some guy marches in and AMOGs the situation. The thing is, and I will not write about it, people simply have no idea nor will they ever know the extent of “doing the right thing steadfastly” that any individual man is doing. To conflate doing the right thing with affecting the wife’s behavior is an egregious mistake. They are separate things. I know my part. And your comment, Elspeth, spoke into that hornets nest.

    As j12 said, and it veries woman to woman, but i assert that most men live with this for their entire married lives. It goes from a tolerable irritant, to an over overpoweringly provocative thing that ends up in the trap it has set….that is, the guy reacts by raising his voice (or like j12 walks away) and then, issue over, new issue….his behavior.

  55. Elspeth:
    That said, I truly believe that any woman can learn to put er feelings in the proper perspective,

    If she wants to do so, of course. If she does not want to, then there is no way to make her do so. I believe that is the point, Elspeth – you chose to put other things over your own feelings, and so you are saying “Shucks, if I can do it, any woman can” but you leave out the part about choosing or wanting to do so.

    and that her husband can help her by simply refusing to be an emotional hostage at the mercy of her emotional terrorism.

    If she truly wants to change, then yes, a man can help her in this way.
    On the other hand, if she does not want to change, then taking this route at best minimizes the damage in the long run. In the short run, a man who decides to stop putting up with emotional terrorism may well find she’s doubling down on it, and that conflict increases and intensifies. Because she had a tool to control him with, and when it becomes less effective, one natural response is to amp up the intensity and frequency in order to make the tool effective again.

    It occurs to me, Elspeth, that you are more reflective (or perhaps “self-observant” is a better term) than most women. You actually seem to look at yourself in an honest way. That’s really rare in women in general, and IMO it’s increasingly rare in women under 35, the YuGoGrrl generation. Most women, so far as I can tell, simply don’t ever bother to reflect on themselves and the effects they have on other people at all. Oh, there’s lots of navel-gazing, sure, but staring into one’s own eyes in the bathroom mirror – that’s not really self reflection. It’s staring at reflection, nothing more.

  56. Part of the problem here is that with all due respect to those particular women who don’t do this, it relates to the whole active/inactive agency thing. Women take submission to mean they would act like Christ’s vision of the Church if men really were as perfect as Christ. This is simply not true. Because not just as a society but as the Church we do not generally hold women accountable. If women were held as accountable for lying, a specifically mentioned sin, as men are for pornography and emotional neglect which require some discussion to explain, then we might have some degree of fairness and balance. I want to see the sermons about lying and twisting men’s words around.

  57. Empath
    Me: “hello”
    Ms Emp: “why was there a tube of antibiotic ointment in the bed?”
    Me: “huh?”

    It is a trust issue. When we trust another person, questions like this just don’t come up, at all. When there are trust issues, then everything is questionable, every remark gets filtered through the “what did he/she really mean by that” automata. I know this from personal experience, and from both sides, too.

    “Don’t you trust me?” is, however, not a workable reply to this, because it can amp up whatever trust issue is buried underneath.

    Lately I’ve been reading about the amygdala, a small brain structure that has very fast response (on the order of 30 to 50 milliseconds) and is intimately associated with the limbic system, and thus the “fight / flight / freeze” response. I’m thinking of it as a pattern-recognition system that is totally irrational, that yanks on the fight/flight/freeze cord whenever it detects certain threats. As a pattern recognition system, it surely must be trainable, and since it’s associated with emotion likely we train it with trauma.

    I already discoursed some time back on Elspeth’s site about women yelling at men.
    That surely involves the amygdala. Empath’s posting suggests that when there is a long train of abuses and insults from woman to man, his amygdala can become trained to fire off at seeming not so important events, because in the past they were associated with threats of some sort.

    The good news is that we can train the amygdala to chill out, perhaps via visualization – visualize the affront, feel the emotional response, and consciously walk step by step through a better response.

    This is all in my / his head, and enables me/him to deal with “herself”. It won’t make her change, or want to change, it just enables him to manage her a little better.

  58. Re reading my posting I see this:
    Empath’s posting suggests that when there is a long train of abuses and insults from woman to man, his amygdala can become trained to fire off at seeming not so important events, because in the past they were associated with threats of some sort.

    I projected some of my self into that, in no way did or do I intend to minimize the seriousness of lying in all its many forms, especially when done within what is supposed to be the trusting life of marriage. I was, rather, thinking of myself and how some things cause an emotional internal reaction all out of proportion to the immediate action or bad behavior, because apparently of a deep association with prior and more serious bad behavior / transgressions.

    I would not wish to minimize some other man’s situation, especially when I have not exactly been in his shoes.

    Stay safe, y’all.

    [I took nothing like that from it, but thanks for explaining]

  59. Sure. I don’t ask “don’t you trust me?” Because for some odd reason, she has some degree of mistrust always. Again, not targeted, not about fidelity. She did years ago, but now I get no grilling about business trips, we speak on the phone at night, pleasantly ring off, done.

    But the Hush Sweet Charlotte thing, I just cant figure. Its as if she wants to show I am addled some how. Yet she cannot, and her attempts involve these lies and twists. Its just bizarre and out of left field. Time and again it reveals that its not me addled, its her. She pays no one any attention, she asks questions rapid fire, but its as if asking is the point because she doesn’t listen for the answers. Later, she will ask again. Kids and I get this treatment, a lot, multiple times per day. We tell her things we are going to do, time comes to do them and she says “why didn’t you tell me you were doing that”.

    Its more than just being lost in emotions. Its being lost in something, I don’t know what. If she isn’t grilling, she is creating these confusing dialogs based on her just not listening to others, even when they are answering her questions. And if she isn’t doing those things, then lists of tasks are flying off her we need to do this and that and this and that…..My older kids avoid being around her and I lately because they see the back and forth and hate the tension.

    It has been rare the past few months that her and I have a conversation of mutual interest where during it she doesnt pop into one of these behaviors. Then if I react, I’m the issue. Simple things have to be stressful. Last evening going to fireworks, we’ve always parked at a big church and walked to where the town has the display. I remarked we’d park in the church lot and she quibbled. I explained, we always do, there is a back way out and we avoid the crush. She debated twice, thrice more. I finally firmly said, I’m parking at the church and done discussing it.
    she said “okay…okay…sheesh, you just want to argue”…..I have discovered that even where to park and such are emotionally driven decisions. When I manage to reach the root of her not picking it is always obviously tied to some feeling she would get if things went as she suggests, on even trivial matters. So much so that the entire family would be dragged into endless wastes of time in pursuit of a feeling she wants to get by doing a certain thing a certain way.

    At best this behavior is tamped down. Never gone. And the more men I speak to the more I see they have this issue too. Im having a bad day here arent I

  60. I have discovered that even where to park and such are emotionally driven decisions. When I manage to reach the root of her not picking it is always obviously tied to some feeling she would get if things went as she suggests, on even trivial matters.

    The usual female desire to control everyone around her, coupled with some increased insecurity due to menopause?

    As men we seek to control our environment directly, within the limitations of civilization of course. Women tend to seek to control their environment by controlling the people within it, especially the men. It’s just how they are. In a BIble context, it’s the Eve-nature within them. Any insecurity, such as pregnancy/childbirth, illness (even a short term one), etc. apparently increases the desire to control people, especially men.

    VIewed in Game terms, attempting to control where you park is clearly a fitness test, and the only appropriate response is to dismiss it one way or another. The response “you just want to argue” looks like pure projection to me, and I would ignore that kind of bait, frankly. By the way, IMO this is how mature men get a reputation for grumpy/grouchy non-communication: we see such a request as irrelevant or worse from the getgo and squelch it immediately, therefore we are “unwilling to try new things”, “grouchy”, and so forth. No, we are less tolerant of nonsense due to tedious previous experience.

  61. Empath: What you describe about your wife is certainly not unique to her. I used to think my ex-wife was a pathological, compulsive liar because she is Indonesian, and it appears to be a powerful trait among Indonesians generally, not only Indonesian women. Turns out I was wrong. It’s a potent trait of all women; lying for the sake of lying; twisting and warping; digging up past matters/issues you thought were long resolved or were not aware of at all; unrelated stuff, except perhaps on the uttermost of the extreme tangents; trying to save themselves (Elspeth) from God only knows what (responsibility/accountability?). Women are true masters of twisting things completely out of context and proportions, to suit their own twisted/solipsistic notions.

  62. Here is an example of something women will do that is ……something I can never grasp. Its an unintentional tool for arguing, though that is not the context of this example.

    I left my cell phone at a grocer last evening. When I realized it was gone I called. A woman answered and I explained Id left a phone and was looking for it.

    She said word for word (with a certain tone of, almost like mild scolding), “well, do you know what time you left it, because the service desk is closed now”

    I catch things like this all the time. I left my patience for it in the years before 50. So I replied, ”
    if the service desk is closed, what difference does it make when I left it?”

    I put this here because even though it has no direct relationship to a couple debating, the reasoning this woman employed, and the question that it informed her to make, reveal something about a thought process. I could only guess, but it seems she had a dozen things running through her mind and this is the hybrid that came out of her mouth. And it made sense to her.

    How can a man debate with that kind of mind scrabble?

  63. AR notes “As men we seek to control our environment directly, within the limitations of civilization of course. Women tend to seek to control their environment by controlling the people within it, especially the men.”

    A concept with legs.

  64. That is unlike you to fall into that cheap a trick….(I say respectfully).

    I read i respectfully.

    She can mitigate this. It is the snowflake who can shut this down. Those few women Ive known, and have referred to here before as rare gems a friend or two married or some other acquaintance through family etc., I remember those times when Ive seen the feelings-as-primacy thing manifest in them and how profound it seemed to me and how disappointed I was.

    I don’t know that it can ever be completely shut down. But we can always choose to shut up. No every thought needs to be voiced.

  65. I don’t know that it can ever be completely shut down. But we can always choose to shut up. No every thought needs to be voiced.

    Once again, that word “we” is not a universal.

    FYI.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s