Protect Girl’s Innocence…Expect her not to use dating agency

My old boss once told me a story. He’d raised three girls who were already grown, married, and had children of their own. One was in the middle of a divorce, and all manner of allegations were flying about the guy.

He told me he always had a stern talk with boys who came calling on his daughters. he further told me that when his daughters each had accepted a man’s marriage proposal he sat with them telling them, essentially, that if they ever raised their hand to them they’d be answering to him.

I have daughters and can’t ponder one being physically abused. As a child I witnessed my mother abused. Blood and fist and broken bones, not spoken to harshly. Real abuse. I refuse to imagine either of my two girls experiencing that. One reason I do not imagine that is, I do not follow societal and church signals that create a taint on things male. Plus, I watched my mother’s role in the escalation of hostilities that would end in significant physical abuse.

Because I am able to separate cause and effect from blame of victim (few today have this ability), I can see the role she played. She wasn’t at fault. But she could have avoided the abuse most times it occurred. So I get emotional about the issue. Angry, like I deserve my anger, and I deserve a fair hearing. That made me tersely ask my boss if he’s had any similar admonishing talk with his daughters, and hypothetically if he had a son would he similarly admonish the women marrying them.

He didn’t like the question. or maybe the way I asked it. No matter, my mouth has had my feet in it so many times it’s a veritable shoe store in there.

Today Dennis Rainey’s remarks caused similar emotions when I read his list of things he said to boys who came calling on his daughters. There is a steady debate at Dalrock’s between IBB and the rest of the men in the combox. IBB would likely borrow from this list:

  1. A woman is God’s creation, a beautiful creation, a fine creation. You’ve certainly noticed that my daughter is pretty, is attractive and has a cute figure, haven’t you?

  2. The attraction of a young man to a young lady is both normal and good. I’m glad you like her and want to be with her.

  3. I understand and remember what the sex drive of a young man is like. Believe me, I’ve been there, I know what you’re dealing with.

  4. I’m going to hold you accountable for your relationship with my daughter. Expect me to be asking to see if you’re dealing uprightly with her.

  5. I’m challenging you to purity. I want you to guard her innocence, not just her virginity.

  6. I want you to respect and uphold the dignity of my daughter by keeping your hands off of her. Keeping this one precaution in mind will help keep you from getting into further trouble.

  7. Do you understand all of what I’ve just said to you? Are we clear on what I’m expecting and what you can expect from me?

  8. When you’re a dad someday, I hope you will challenge your own children to abide by these standards and will interview your daughter’s dates. My prayer is that you will never forget this conversation.(my emphasis)

I get him. But I don’t like what this propagates. How can you read number 7, with its overly aggressive disciplinarian (of a small child) tone and not imagine potential rejoinders that you’d like to be able to express if you were in that situation?

The anti male bias is screaming off the page. This boy must guard his daughters innocence? Mendacity on a kabob. This boy could brush her hands of him, break away from embraces, physically resist any attempt she made at physical intimacy, and still not successfully guard her innocence, for it would be in her intent and resulting actions where innocence is lost. Not in his yielding or resisting her charms. The boy can strap himself to the mast. Sirens are still sirens. Even if his ship sails on and all he does is struggle against his restraints.

Worse, in the final point Rainey attempts to mask his gender focus by using the word “children”. Challenge your “children” to follow these rules. Interview your daughter’s dates. Your sons, therefore, are your “children”. And they must guard the innocence of the girls they seek to date.

Plus, some guy is going to look aggressively into their eyes in some kind of high school football coach-esque way and ask them a question that would typically elicit the response “sir yes sir!”.

For more help handling the salivating petri dishes of hormones called boys, so that the sterile clean room ready  pink bow, ribbon, and white dress worthy girls are not led into losing their innocence, see these sure fire real world ideas about how to get boys to listen respectfully.

He concludes with this:

This is just a fun way of reminding you that protecting your daughter’s moral purity is a responsibility you need to take on with purpose, intent and diligence.

This is true. It is important to make every effort to protect your daughter’s moral purity. But that is not what he describes. He describes protecting her virginity. He makes no allowance for her desire, her intent, her thoughts. Its about the physical results. and it omits her agency completely.

I wonder if, later, he explains Matthew 5:28 to his boys. And misses the irony.

Several years after my old boss told me the story of how he spoke to the men who married his daughters, he and I were traveling together and he shared some new information with me. The one who had divorced her husband, he was worried about her, because she was having lots of guys sleep over and her small kids were there. he didn’t approve, but the dirty rotten scoundrel ex was making custody waves about it.

Maybe he should have gone to the man, lectured him, then repeated number nine from the list. may not have gone well. The ex is an urban police officer in a tough city. He may have some expectations of his own where his children are concerned.

 

 

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29 thoughts on “Protect Girl’s Innocence…Expect her not to use dating agency

  1. Great post the Father was short sighted and didn’t understand the true nature of his daughters. He sees now but projects the blame on the ex..

  2. My sister’s ex husband was abusive. First time he laid a hand on her,that she told my father about it, he defended her. My father beat her husband with a mop handle, helped her pack, and brought her home. When she went back to her ex, he told her, “You like it, I love it. I will not be coming back over there to get you again. and I’m not fighting anymore.” And he didn’t.

    Thank you for saying this. It needs to be said more. It may be the same old schtick, but it’s one that never seems to go out of style.

    My dad held me firmly responsible for the choices I made and that was as it should be.

  3. There was a brie discussion buried in the thread of my latest fitness post, LOL, that touched on this and a commenter made a point similar to the one Empath is making here (cause and effect vs. blaming the victim). She wondered if certain aggressive types of women seem to be naturally drawn to men with a penchant for violence.

    I’d never thought of it that way but she might be on to something.

  4. In Feminism, it cannot ever be said that women have agency. This is Half Ephesians Country. In Half Ephesians Country (which is where you will find the Christian Feminists) people behave in curious ways and say curious things.

    Husbands and other men provide the atmosphere in which a woman will be the good person she inherently is. A woman is like an inert compound in Half Ephesians Country. She will come into various effects depending on the active agent (males) added to her life. The purity of the active agent is vital in maintaining her purity; it even affects other women she comes into contact with, for other women can be tainted by impure male agency.

    In Half Ephesians Country, the woman was tempted by the serpent in Eden because the man wasn’t there for her.

    In Half Ephesians Country women always have pure sexual thoughts, only yarn to be loved. It is only the taint of male sin that makes them want to twerk in dance clubs or dress to inspire desire. They would never do this on their own.

    In Half Ephesians Country women only initiate divorce because their men failed them.

    In Half Ephesians Country it is wrong to tell women they have agency. That implies that they should stay in unhappy marriages, that they deserve to be abused, that they deserve to be raped, that they are mere objects for male desire, that they should have no hopes or dreams of their own. In Half Ephesians Country any challenges to a woman’s hopes or dreams is automatically hatred for women, even if men face the same challenges.

    n Half Ephesians Country women are inherently wonderful magical creatures, and they can never be demonstrated to be wrong, or they will die. All men must know this if they would live in Half Ephesians Country.

  5. LOL @ “Half Ephesians Country” – could be worth expanding into a separate post!

  6. All this is well and good I suppose, provided there is balance. What is Mrs. Barbara Rainey’s advice / browbeating counsel to those young lasses who would deign to date her sons? Would it look something like this?

    1) A man is God’s creation, a handsome creation, a fine creation. Made first in his image. You’ve certainly noticed that my son is handsome, and has many wonderful provider and protector qualities, haven’t you?

    2) The attraction of a young woman to a young gentleman is both normal and good. I’m glad you like him and want to be with him.

    3) I understand and remember what the drive to obtain a relationship and a commitment from a young man, such as my son, felt like. Believe me, I’ve been there, I know what you’re dealing with.

    4) I’m going to hold you accountable for your relationship with my son. Expect me to be asking to see if you’re in proper submission to his leadership and being a supportive helpmeet to him.

    5) I’m challenging you to purity. I want you to guard his innocence, not just his virginity.

    6) I want you to respect and uphold the dignity of my son by keeping your hands off of him and his money until you are married. Keeping this one precaution in mind will help keep you from getting into further trouble.

    7) Do you understand all of what I’ve just said to you? Are we clear on what I’m expecting and what you can expect from me?

    8) When you’re a mom someday, I hope you will challenge your own children to abide by these standards and will interview your son’s dates. My prayer is that you will never forget this conversation.

    Not likely, for such a woman is Exhibit A of the meddling, overbearing mother-in-law.

    [That was the nature of my question to my old boss. Had he similarly asked things like this? he is an interesting man, diminutive in size, suffering a touch of lil’ big man syndrome, own lots of guns-no issue there-likes to talk hunting a fishing and on social matters, white knightery, attends a church that once, when visiting, an elder gave the sermon and it was so anti-male I took my boys to the lobby….something i have done on occasion when they were young teens, they needn’t hear that crap]

  7. My sister, a medical doctor age 62, has been married six times over four decades, each time to a once-handsome broad-shouldered redneck brute. She’s been beaten by at least three of them, hospitalized once. The latest shot a hole in their dining room ceiling last year after waving his pistol around during a drunken argument.

    When much younger and/or living much closer I had to go rescue her several times in the aftermath of tearful phone calls “Y’all were right about him, boo hoo, etc.” I’ve had to show a gun (a completely separate thing from waving it around; at least, it sounds like you know what you are doing) to two of them, but I got really physical exactly once, on her second husband: I beat him with one of his trees, which sounds too stupid not to explain.

    She was still up to her eyeballs in med school debt and working it off with long hours in some rural medical program, had a kid and another on the way, and he was doing nothing but drinking and scheming. His last venture required him to pay a friend of his $12,000 to start a tree nursery, but the friend and nursery scheme went away and so my sister was left with literally hundreds of little trees and bushes dying in buckets all over her yard. I would say ghetto, but whatever the white trash version of ghetto is.

    Longer story shorter, the kid and her suitcases were loaded in my pickup truck while he followed her through the house drunkenly whining about how it was all her fault when the next thing I know her scream was cut short and she was flat on her back in the yard with him choking her to show how much he loved her. He was probably twice as wide as me and definitely outweighed me by a good hundred pounds and he had the whole drunken rage thing going for him, so I couldn’t budge him.

    The bucket shattered on the back of his head on the second swing, and the root ball exploded on his face when he looked up. It probably wasn’t long after, although I wouldn’t know precisely because I was seeing red myself, my sister had to pull me off him.

    Less than two years later she married again to a guy who was exactly like him.

  8. @SS

    Ha! I searched up that video on YouTube, copied the link here…and then decided that Empath might not appreciate it, and deleted it before posting.

  9. @Cane I know Burr uses a lot of foul language but I’m sure it’s been heard before, and he makes the point really well

    Also your cheese comment merits three groans.

  10. The video is like a lot of good humor. Based on absolute truth. His analysis of the argument is exactly as Ive tried to describe it before but instead of saying the man calls the woman a name, Ive said the man yells. He grows so frustrated with the meandering that he yells. he is cornered. he knows he is right, right right right. And sometimes, often times, it actually matters. Ive tried to list techniques women use.

    One example is when she says something that is tangentially related to the topic of the argument, but unrelated to settling the aspect being disputed. She will make a statement that is 100% correct, and seem to think she scored, lacking a better term. This is maddening. The more linear a thinker the man is the more difficult to deal with this.

    then you get the experts asking “would you rather be right or be married”. That is the church giving the wife keys to the argument kingdom. She is justified because a man would man up and yield. Even apologize. The experts act like NOTHING matters enough to be correct about. And they ignore a very important fact. When an argument starts about a seemingly trivial thing…..lets say what time to leave to be somewhere, or what road to take to get there, like that….saying its trivial misses the context perhaps that for 3 decades this issue had demonstrably created unneeded chaos and stress on the whole family and everyone suffers, kids, dad, everyone.

    I had to wonder when the ladies applauding are thinking. i am 100% sure they are not truly bought in to the truth behind the humor. No way. They could no more take that on board based on a comedian than they could accept the moon made of aardvark feces.

    Imagine a preacher sharing those things in a message. If you can, then go pee in a cup cause someone drugged you

  11. ““would you rather be right or be married?””

    This common phrase uttered by marriage counselors, preachers, older men, is an incredible insult to women, if they [women] were to stop and think about it.

  12. @Empath

    I had to wonder when the ladies applauding are thinking. i am 100% sure they are not truly bought in to the truth behind the humor. No way. They could no more take that on board based on a comedian than they could accept the moon made of aardvark feces.

    I would say they are as onboard as they would be if a preacher said it. Meaning, at that moment, in the theater or congregation, they really are thinking about it, and they’ll laugh or nod in agreement. Women are usually shortsighted; they’re immediate, and responsive. They don’t consider the long-term until they are much older, as a rule.

    That’s why Thursday is Hell day with piano practice, soccer try-outs, ballet, dinner to fix, choir rehearsal, and study for tomorrow’s exams. They didn’t plan to over-budget their time–they just agreed to each of those things immediately because they were things that seemed should be done.

  13. They agreed to those things, in my experience, for slightly , very slightly, different reasons.

    They FELT GOOD when they did it. This bears explaining. The felt just like they think they would feel right after they actually do the thing, or a day after they do the thing and recount it to someone. Its one of the many connections across which synapses fire that make liberalism so compatible with the female mind. Saying/agreeing to do is the same as actually doing.

    Secondly, when figurative Thursday comes around, lots can be laid off on others because she is soooooo busy……if it cant be laid off, then it can be begged off altogether, and the next week the excuse making the women share is an empathogasmic experience.

    This is a cousin to something my wife does. When the mail comes she opens and keeps any and every solicitation for charity that is Christian based and has to do with poverty or children. She will cycle through giving to all of them, one at a time, but receiving all that mail and never just tossing it with the junk mail I am guessing feels at that moment like she is giving….because she intends to.

  14. @Empath

    I think we’re describing the same thing. In the theater, laughing at the comedian’s joke feels good. It’s the right thing to do. Same with agreeing with the pastor.

    What most of them don’t do is try to match up their own experience with that truth behind the joke/sermon, and see if the shoe fits.

    Meanwhile, guys devoted to church will wear every shoe that’s thrown at them, and all at the same time. There’s no discrimination.

  15. What a wimp that Rainey guy is. My suspicion is that men like this are basically disrespected and belittled by their wives, and therefore develop a VERY unhealthy relationship with/about their daughters.

    You know, it serves many fathers right that their daughters end up running away with some a-hole, living a life of wantonness and promiscuity. Too bad dad is a pu–y.

  16. All this analysis….sheesh.

    We laugh because we think it applies to every other woman EXCEPT us.

    Not that complicated.

  17. @Elspeth

    We laugh because we think it applies to every other woman EXCEPT us.

    Sometimes this is true, and in those cases I’m describing why they never apply it to themselves.

    There are times when, during a joke/sermon about women’s bad behavior women will laughingly bawl out, “That’s so true; I’ve done that!” And there are those instances when they are reminded of when they did something similar to the joke/sermon to others, but they’ll think to themselves, “No, but that time with me was different!”

    Because, just as they reflexively disassociate themselves from “other women” they can reflexively disassociate those “I’ve done that!” funny times from the “No, but that was different!” unfunny times, i.e., Not All Times Are Like That.

  18. Right Cane. We can all disassociate to assuage guilt. I’m going to guess that men do it more on big things, and do it not by rationalizing that “its different”, but by compartmentalization.

    My experience says women can do it on anything, “it was different when i did that”….funny, what if she then thought, “I was provoked”. That would be very odd in light of the comedy routine and his main point which was we cannot talk about what women do that leads up to anything..

  19. re: “It was different when I did that.”

    Not that I’m squeamish about personal details, but I won’t say when this occurred. My wife has claimed smilingly, more than once, in my presence although not to me, that she hardly ever turns me down. One time she explained to me later that it’s only when she wants to have sex but still turns me down, because she’s mad or something, that “counts” as her turning me down. All the other times don’t count as her turning me down, because she didn’t want to so I simply shouldn’t have asked, I guess I “asked amiss”.

    Se la female logic.

  20. @Elspeth, thanks! I aim to please, or amuse. Not all my jokes involve thinking. My wife bears the brunt of those. The other night we were lying resting together, enjoying the soothing sounds of rainfall and wind outside in the trees, and the fan blowing in the bedroom. She had just mentioned not needing the ambient white noise machine when suddenly she jolted up from a big thunderclap, and I said that must have been brown noise.

  21. @jf12

    She had just mentioned not needing the ambient white noise machine when suddenly she jolted up from a big thunderclap, and I said that must have been brown noise.

    She’s been…

  22. @Cane Caldo, well, ok, rocking out with Angus “Crazylegs” Young frenetic licks was not on my agenda, but it was indeed really cool. One thing I’ve always wondered is why they couldn’t have preferred a singer rather than a caterwauler like Johnson.

    And now for something completely different, to restore innocence, or something. I had a dream one time where I was singing this, “No Mo’ Bacon” in front of a large congregation.

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