Amen, Bro…..ahem, Preach It?!

I’ve been doing some catching on the egalitarian front and I was reading over on Shirley Taylor’s blog where I found out she has a new book called “Women Equal-No Buts: Powered by the same Source”

No. seriously. that. is. the. title.


Anyway, I was reading on her blog and discovered that there is a call for schism. It has finally gotten to the point where churchianity is completely intolerable for some egalitarians. Tony Jones over at Patheos is throwing down his limp glove liner, incensed over the subjugation of women in Churchianity (oh, the humanity). His bullet points?

  • If you attend a church that does not let women preach or hold positions of ecclesial authority, you need to leave that church.
  • If you work for a ministry that does not affirm women in ecclesial leadership, you need to leave that ministry.
  • If you write for a publishing house that also prints books by “complementarians,” you need to take your books to another publishing house.
  • If you speak at conferences, you need to withdraw from all events that do not affirm women as speakers, teachers, and leaders.

Wow, I couldn’t have said it better myself.

That is, we who believe in the full equality of women need to break fellowship with those who do not. The time for dialogue and debate has passed. The Spirit has spoken, and we have listened. It’s time to move forward with full force.

Now all we need is a time machine so that we can send him back 100 years I think we could really solve some issues. Isn’t it ironic how his calling for schism from us makes me oddly united with him? In effect Tony Jones is beckoning his readers to the maw of the matriarchy.



12 thoughts on “Amen, Bro…..ahem, Preach It?!

  1. I’m in the midst of writing a post on “mutual submission” – and why it makes no sense. Tony Jones’ Schism demands are featured in it.

    I find it interesting that someone like Tony Jones is willing to accept people who hold contrary views on any number of issues that are written in the various widely accepted Christian creeds, but will stand and die for his belief in egalitarianism. While I find most of the emergent church nauseous, this particular schism of his strikes me as something to which most Christians ought to say “Fine. Then may you be anathema!” That may be harsh, but he’s asking for it.

  2. I think it’s a fantastic idea. All the Egalitarians can leave the churches en masse and then they can start growing again.
    I don’t think a Complementarian could ever have planned it better themselves.

  3. Although I can appreciate that schism is usually viewed as a bad thing and all that, schism is necessary. Schism is biblical.

    That whole, “Can’t we all just get along?” thing is highly overrated. At the end of this comment are a few verses that talk of schisms as a normal and expected part of the Christian experience. And, no, I’m not referring to splits over dumb stuff like what color carpet to buy for the church lobby.

    Is it sad that some people decide not to stick with truth and split off? Certainly. But it is needed if there is to be anything like commitment to love and truth. The idea of “unity at any cost,” is foreign to the Scriptures.

    In a similar vein, in family devotions this week, I’ve been talking to my wife and kids about “shunning,” which is one of those biblical concepts that today is derided as “mean” or “not loving,” yet there it is in the Scriptures. Over and over again. A good example is 2 Thessalonians 3:14- “If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.” Lest we think that Paul was going his own way, other apostles affirm this approach and Jesus himself covered this in Matthew 18, where he speaks of how to deal with those who are unrepentant in their sin: “And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”

    It is _loving_ to schism and not interact with those in unrepentant sin, but the goal is not to punish, but rather to “shame” them into repentance. Of course, nowadays, insinuating that one should feel shame for sin is sooooo old-fashioned and you can find plenty of so-called churches that will welcome you (and here I am talking of those who call themselves Christians) with open arms despite the severity of your transgressions. We want our churches to be an environment of “acceptance,” a “welcoming place,” where we can be “loved unconditionally.”

    The goal of shaming and schism is restoration: the 2 Thess. verse above is followed by, “Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.” and we must remember Galatians 6:1 as well: “if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness.” Indeed, it is a great challenge to us to be true to the demands of walking in holiness, yet still remain loving toward those we are holding to account. We know how they will treat us: “they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you.” I Peter 4:4.

    God, how we need humility!


    Holy Schism:

    “Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.” – 2 John 2:18-19

    “But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.” – I Cor 11:17-19

  4. @Rookie, it does doesn’t it? How many times have we been told this agenda doesn’t exist? I lost count. I guess Tony thinks they have already wolfed down the big pieces and that the rest will die of neglect if not supported by feminists. My wife suggested that he was hearing from a “spirit alright”, I’m thinking he doesn’t understand the sustaining work of the Holy Spirit (wherever “Ichabod” hasn’t already been written over the door).

  5. @KPP, totally agree. The irony is that the “seeker sensitive” types who howl and wail over shunning don’t have any problems using the principle themselves, of course their justification is a political one and not a Biblical one. I see a strong correlation between what I saw on the college campuses and what we are now seeing in the workplace/church. God’s people being invited to pipe down or leave. I think “she” is a system, one that we have been laboring to identify and one that has penetrated both “church” and state:

    “And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. ”
    (Rev 18:2-7)

    Tony seems as the voice of God (knowing that He would have His will known even through the mouth of an ass).

  6. @God is Laughing I went over to his blog and read it until I couldn’t take it anymore and thought about proverbs 6:16-19 where Saul is defining what God hates. Is Tony soweth discord is all I’m asking?

  7. No, I don’t think so. The discord was sown decades ago in my opinion. What we are seeing is a reaping. Not every voice that God uses is Holy.

    “And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.”
    (1Ki 22:20-22)

    Or as an old pastor friend of mine likes to say: “God has His ways and means committee.”

  8. I haven’t written any responses or posts in a while–I’ve been struggling with illness and with some depression related to that but also to the general topics we discuss here. I work with young children and I see such a need for fatherhood and such an unbalanced approach to teaching and life that I struggle at times with despair about it. However I felt I would be wrong not to respond here.

    I’d like to write a series of teachings on the scriptures that are so contentious. I am not a doctor of the Church, I am not a theologian, I am simply a man who loves the Bible, and I would appreciate it if I could know if you would all find that useful from me. I’d like to start with Ephesians, move on to Corinthians and see where we go from there. I can scarcely write how much these people’s words upset me, and how much I feel something strong needs to be said that establishes scriptural truth clearly in response to it.

  9. @sojournerscribe

    Ephesians 5 and I Corinthians 7 have been on my mind a lot lately. I’m writing about it myself so if you write about it. I’ll read.

  10. @sojournerscribe

    I would find that VERY useful…in fact I almost put a comment on Empath’s last post asking for this very thing. Just had a good conversation with a friend who is a seminary graduate about this issue (he is probably closer to the egalitarian view but a charitable debater) and we talked through a number of the passages; it was a good discussion. Anyway, a deeper look at some of the contentious passages would be great especially:

    Gen 2 || Adam names Eve. Does that imply authority over her?

    Ephesians 5 || How do we read v. 21 (mutual submission) in the context of the verses that follow? How do we interpret “head” (kephalē)?

    1 Peter 3 || What’s the significance of Sarah calling Abraham her lord? (I found an egalitarian perspsective on this passage here:

    Also, 1 Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 7, 1 Corinthians 11, etc.

    @Rookie Writer

    I’ll have to check out your blog

  11. Sojourner

    Please let me know by email if I can pray anything specifically for you. I’d wondered where you went. between you and GIL, now me taking off for weeks sometimes its a batch of inconsistency here man.

    I like the idea, I would recommend it be done with a tab at the top so that there are not our other posts in between your entries. Then, I could see each of us if we saw fit, and if dialog broke out, grabbing things and putting them out here. Does that seem workable?

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