On the runway to hell…AC/DC Indeed

Its a well worn lament that the church is following the culture. I’m not claiming to be out in front of anything when I say that I and others have written a great deal about the mega trends in the church with regard to marital ordering, divorce, dating, even gay marriage.

Now I am concerned about the church and gender roles more comprehensively than the roles of husband and wife. I am remiss in not having this concern sooner. After years of reading gender role blurring as part of the package that constitutes egalitarianism I should have seen it coming.

Christian women have adopted the easy feminist line that there are no differences between men and women, girls and boys, and that no generalities are valid because we just cannot put people in boxes. This is not news. This view is normative in society and has been long enough that the next step has already been taken:

Gender RolesChristians (I think) would gnash their teeth about things like this.

Or would they?

I came across a thread at Christian forums where a father raised the notion of sending his boys to a military academy. The majority of the women in the thread eschew the notion of gender roles and putting kids into boxes, for fear that their precious esteem be damaged. We would not want to suggest to a child that there are differences between the genders. The new doctrine of self esteem preservation has supplanted God’s very creation!

This comment could easily have been made by one of the parents sitting along the sides while that boy in a dress participates in a pageant. I challenge the Christians who believe this way to explain to me the difference between what they are saying and the thought process that puts that boy in a pink dress:

What does destroy a boy (or girl) is forcing them into a format that the parent thinks they should fit into – the fighting, spitting, wild boy that the OP has envisioned, for instance. Chances are that any kid who falls outside of this role is subjected to the kind of name-calling I have seen on this thread – “cissy” or “mommy’s boy”. That is a surefire way to cause a massive hurt in the heart of a boy, who will believe that he can never be “manly” enough to please his parents.

Another comment inadvertantly answers my challenge:

Totally off topic, but this is why I think my egalitarian marriage is the best way to go! This kind of thinking would likely help do away with a lot of unnecessary gender stereotyping and type-casting. I think it would help to take care of social issues like feminism, MRM, decrease the pressure of the justice system, and make teaching in schools a whole lot easier!

She has turned everything upside down and inside out. The way to fix all problems that are reflected in the grievances of MRA’s and feminists, ease pressure on the justice system(?) and make school teaching easier is to ELIMINATE GENDER.

This is not a slippery slope. Its a straight down vertical plummet. I am gasping with incredulity at the dissonance.

God made men and women. He made them men and women. And it was good.

But not good enough.

He really meant to make a person, but He had to make two to sort of fill in what he omitted when He had just made one and to address the problems inherent to the one. It was not that Adam being alone was bad, it was that Adam was bad, incomplete. God therefore must not have meant that two become one, like parts and a whole, but rather that two become same. Interchangeable.

The pathway to hell may include pageant runways in more ways than originally thought.

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42 thoughts on “On the runway to hell…AC/DC Indeed

  1. Wait. Those are ALL boys at that camp? Holy smokes!! I’m stunned that so many parents are okay with this.

    Where are the fathers????

  2. Really? I’m not. I never fail to be surprised about the lows we have reached, but then I realize this is a few years ahead of where we, the church (not all of us obviously) are being dragged.

    The terminology has been adopted as you can see if you read main stream Christian discourse.

  3. I challenge the Christians who believe this way to explain to me the difference between what they are saying and the thought process that puts that boy in a pink dress:

    The first commenter you quoted seems as if her(?) intention is harmless enough. I for one don’t see what’s so wrong with a wild, fighting boy as I married me one of those, LOL, but I get her point. Insomuch as men are taught that any expression of emotion besides anger is bad, that can be problematic.

    The second one? Oh yeah, I could easily see some boy of hers ending up in a pink dress.

    We are supposed to be distinguishable and uniquely male and female. That a Christian doesn’t see this doesn’t bode well for the church’s at large, does it?

  4. I have read enough of the first posters comments that I have context. I also have the context of the group-think that is not only at CF, but informs sadly the majority of evangelical mega churchians with cliches like “we cannot put people in boxes”, “no two people are alike”

    I really dislike all this talk of boys doing physical outdoorsy things as if it’s what distinguishes them from girls, as if girls don’t also like such things. Human beings need and desire physical activity. That’s not a male only trait.

    Tragically, the common themes in Christian culture seem to suggest that girls’/womens’ energy must be directed into one or more of the following in order for her to be a “proper” Christian woman: scrapbooking, Pinterest, social networking, baking, remaining pregnant and/or lactating at all times, making finger foods, and any sort of sewing (knitting, crocheting, etc). This is especially emphasized for married Christian women, and even moreso if they have kids.

    Hobbies that encourage independent thought, intellectual growth, or activities outside the home that don’t directly involved the kids or husband, mean you’re a wicked, wicked heathen of a woman.

    And here, from that commenter

    That’s why parents should back off and let the kid define what ‘boy’ or ‘girl’ means to them instead of the parent forcing the kid into their mold of what a boy or girl “should” be.

  5. See her comment here:

    That’s why, while we were allowed to run wild as kids (GIRLS as well as BOYS), mom would also have “quiet time” in the evening when we were to find something quiet and calm to do, like painting, reading, whatever. TV watching was not encouraged. If you don’t ever teach kids how to calm themselves and undertake some studious activities, how will they ever cope in school? How will they study?

    I see boys who have been let run wild all the time – they are usually the ones who won’t share toys or play fairly with other kids. They want to grab everything and push everyone around. Or he’s in a restaurant running around and yelling while people are trying to eat. “Oh he’s just a boy”. No he’s not, he’s hell on wheels. And he’s like that because parents have never told him to calm down/quiet down and moderate his voice/behavior for appropriate situations.

    Boys are not wild dogs. If you treat them like that, they will bite and bark their way into adulthood, to the detriment of themselves and everyone else.

    Can you see how she contradicts herself? here she clearly nods to a difference between boys and girls, all while denying such things exist.
    Im thinking societal trends that have girls in male sports and dangerous jobs are there to elevate the image of women, while putting males in pageants is to degrade the image of men, all to equalize the genders in a value system that is corrupted. If the value system was well considered, the differences wouldn’t be under attack. Change the value system, not the gender differences.

  6. Now that you have provided some context, I see more clearly. I have yet to see anyone allow their boys to run like wild dogs. I see it more often that daughters are allowed to behave inappropriately. This part is particularly stunning:

    Tragically, the common themes in Christian culture seem to suggest that girls’/womens’ energy must be directed into one or more of the following in order for her to be a “proper” Christian woman: scrapbooking, Pinterest, social networking, baking, remaining pregnant and/or lactating at all times, making finger foods, and any sort of sewing (knitting, crocheting, etc). This is especially emphasized for married Christian women, and even moreso if they have kids.

    Hobbies that encourage independent thought, intellectual growth, or activities outside the home that don’t directly involved the kids or husband, mean you’re a wicked, wicked heathen of a woman.

    I have witnessed no such thing, LOL. What “Christian culture” is she referring to? In real life, I see very few women who can cook, bake, have many children, or sew.

    Red herring, that is.

  7. Red Herring is exactly right. One could say that the totality of the church going wrong in the gender arena is all because of a bunch of red herrings

    men will abuse
    women are expected to be homemakers
    men will be porn addicts
    men will divorce women
    whatever, all fear generating red herrings

  8. I wrote this comment in your ‘Loving and Controlling’ post and think it crosses over here:

    I love my husband dearly and due to his dominant personality I found submission to him not too difficult because things were more pleasant when I obeyed rather than arguing plus he acted like he was in control so I just believed that things would turn out fine if I followed.
    Fast forward several years and the most self-resistance I ever faced was when I realised I had a natural inclination to overthrow/crush/challenge my husband’s parenting!
    My internal dialogue was so damn ugly and I’m certain my face would have followed suit whether I actually said anything or not! Eek.

    Where I saw a ‘need’ for tenderness my husband was tough. Where I saw a ‘need’ for gentleness my husband was gruff. Where I saw a ‘need’ for kindness my husband would rebuke. Where I saw a ‘need’ for cautious safety, my husband would advise daring boldness…. You get the point! I can’t tell you just how horrible my thoughts were.

    I thought my way was right and by default anything he did differently must be wrong….
    (Mother’s know best etc)

    I justified my position in my head because of ‘research’ (yep you can find anything you want on google!) and as a result felt that his approach was damaging and perhaps one day we’d all suffer the consequences. AGGGH it’s embarrassing!

    Anyway…. let me tell you that there is no ‘desire’ to submit. It is an act of obedience to God and it gets easier and more natural with practice and biblical reinforcement!

    I have repented of this and learnt to support my husband’s parenting style by imitating it in his absence, by reinforcing his words if challenged by the children, by STAYING OUT OF IT when he’s in action!!! Oh and by being quiet 😉

    In my opinion the only thing a wife truly DESIRES is to be in control. To usurp her husband’s authority is to go straight back to the fall. We do it constantly unless we learn to love according to God’s law.

    Pride is the sin. Humility is the answer.

    To really LOVE is to esteem my husband higher than myself.

    My husband is the most fantastic father to his children and they are learning to be bold, inquisitive, athletic and courageous because of him! My previous attitude was so wrong and I remain thankful I learned this not too late. My job is to support my husband’s way.
    And there’s my place!

    Only men know how to raise boys to manhood. If I had insisted on doing things ‘my way’ we’d be looking at weaker versions of our boys today. My husband is incredibly manly and I can’t understand how I didn’t just trust his way from the beginning.

    Let me tell you that no son of my husband’s will EVER be put in a dress! If ever something would push my husband’s violence button that would be it… (ok I’m not really in danger but I sure as heck wouldn’t risk it!)

    I am a SAHM with four children 6 and under. The two boys are 5 and 6.
    I love my role but a mother is the wrong person to prepare boys to be men. Women instinctively protect what they believe to be ‘safe’ and therefore don’t encourage the command and conquer mentality that God has given males.
    It is my desire that by puberty, our boys are doing much of their learning with their grandfather (my dad) while my husband is working.
    They need to leave their mother’s side to not wind up being emasculated versions of her – they need to be in the company of men to imitate the sex they were created as.

    In the meantime, in my husband’s absence, I make every effort to defer to his authority…
    ie: remind the children of what daddy likes us to do, tell them he is in charge so I’ll have to ask him before making decisions that I’m not clear on, keep the house clean and tidy for his arrival. Whenever I say ‘tidy up time littlies!’ my 3yr old girl asks if Daddy’s coming home 🙂
    I see it as my duty to continue parenting under his instruction, and then to step back as helper when he is home.
    My 10yr old neice was shocked when we went to pick up my husband one day from work – that I moved over to the passenger’s seat! It annoyed her and she asked me why I didn’t keep driving.
    My boys said to her – Mummy CAN drive, but only when Daddy’s not there 🙂
    Amen!

    In his weekends, my husband decides what he wants to do with his family. Sometimes that’s church, sometimes it’s playing at parks, sometimes it’s taking the boys to chop firewood with him. Sometimes he takes all the littlies out for a fun day and gets me to organise the house while they’re all gone.

    He is in charge, and he does life on his terms.
    Our children are HIS children and I’m allowed to come along for the ride.
    I accept this and gratefully relish the role I am in 🙂

    Too often the mother becomes the leader of the household and this means emasculating any sons and creating entitled daughters.
    Mothers need to watch and observe how the husband does things and then follow suit.

  9. Empathalogism do you know of Timothy Keller?

    I caught up with an older family friend and his fiance this week (he’s in 50s about to marry a 34yr old)
    She was so lovely – I’m absolutely thrilled for him.

    The fiance was reading a book called ‘The Meaning of Marriage’ by Timothy and Kathy Keller and so naturally I picked it up to check what advice she’s applying to her marriage before the event 🙂 Our family friend told me it’s the best book and a must read for everyone.
    Being the way that I am, this sort of recommendation raises my skepticism!
    Truth is never that popular nor is it allowed to be mainstream….

    So I photocopied an entire chapter (Yep the Submission one!) which interestingly or actually not surprisingly is the only chapter written by the wife….

    Here’s a gem of a paragraph for you:

    “My mother was one of the only college-educated women among her acquaintances. I had grown up not even considering whether I was the equal of any boy – it just never occurred to me to divide the world into boys and girls, except when it came to restrooms. So, in some ways, the whole feminist movement was a terrible shock to me. You mean, I thought, there are women who have been mistreated, abused, exploited, marginalised, made to feel inferior? The proposed cure revealed to me that I had been oblivious to the disease.”

    WTF???!!!! No differences between boys and girls and this is a GOOD thing?!??!
    I have never ever come across this justification EVER. I have heard christian women say “I’m not a feminist BUT…..” But I’ve never heard it like this.
    To wrap feminism up in this twisted ‘disease/cure’ concept just blows my mind.

    These books are so popular and un-freaking-believably influential!!!
    I wanna warn the world!!!!!!!!

    The reason I was introduced to the manosphere in the first place was because of researching the teachings of Ken Nair who wrote a dreadful book called
    The Key To Becoming A Strong And Irresistible Husband Is Discovering The Mind Of A Woman.”
    Yeah it’s a shocker! Friends tried to force my husband to read it! We and my father have tried to warn our friends off the teaching but yeah the wife loooves it.
    I remember when you read my comment about Ken Nair at Dalrock you wrote back saying
    “Ken Nair – RUN!”

    Anyway… so now what to do?! I wish all the very best for my friend – and his fiance is just gorgeous…. but you know I can’t help but be concerned because their marriage will only be as strong as the foundations they build on. . .
    What I’ve researched about Timothy Keller since learning of this book is not comforting!

  10. CF was overrun by the worst types of feminists, militant homosexuals and transgenders quite a while back. The place is really a freak show when you consider the “Christian” moniker. It has the apparent morality of a rave with free ecstasy. The only people who aren’t embraced with wide open arms are those that take the Bible seriously, that’s one of the reasons that I don’t take them seriously.

  11. Child Protective Services SHOULD remove these children from their psycho parents and place the children in foster care until an appropriate permanent home can be identified. The parents should be prosecuted for felony child abuse in the form of emotional abuse.

    I capitalized the word SHOULD above because I know what should occur will not. This culture and world is so crazy and confusing. Let’s hope our own children develop healthy and have faith in Jesus.

  12. Elspeth:
    “Where are the fathers?”

    According to the 2010 US Census, only 1/3 of American children actually live with one. This is the result. So much for progress!

  13. Empath:
    I was about to write a long post at CF about why God created two genders, but reading the Churchian comments had me thinking: what’s the use? They have no clue as to what is obvious and self-evident, how would they understand a reasoned argument?

    Really, these kinds of stories simply make one want to give up. Society is rapidly reaching a point where normal and sane people aren’t going to be able to function in it any longer.

  14. @Eric

    That sounds like an invitation to a flame war. God made two genders so that women would have someone to hate, blame for all of their woes, frivorce, and lay fault at the collapse of Churchianity at the feet of. Any diversion from this is going to draw out all kinds of derision and hatred since your are trying to “confuse the topic”. Men need to know that they are not Christ-like enough (which I agree with) in the ways feminists want them to be, suggesting otherwise is not only “unmanly” but anti-Christian. Didn’t you know that husbands are supposed to love their wives like Christ loves the Churchians, meaning unconditionally and without correction? Get with the times.

    With the Evangelical feminists your dealing with the most pernicious and deeply ingrained heresies that we see in modern Christianity. I consider them to be on the level of a cult. Reasoning will not make a dent in their doctrine, only the intervention of God by His grace. Quit beating your head against the wall. But you already knew that.

  15. They have no clue as to what is obvious and self-evident, how would they understand a reasoned argument?

    Its handy to say the script is written and they will stick to it. But its worse. They will change the script so long as it advances the feelings based goals they cherish. Once we are having boys being girls in church plays and such as a focus, we will then move on to the next culture initiated feel good thing. If they were static it would be helpful.
    Albert Mohler has this correct insomuch as he writes that we are the outsiders in a profound way now. We are like the first hippies or more current, we are like the OWS crowd.

  16. I commented on this somewhere before. With all of the hatred being expressed towards masculinity, men and male endeavors is it really any shock that the boys want to identify as “winners”? That is girls. Girls have power, boys get drugged.

  17. Want to piss off a feminist? I mean REALLY piss them off?

    Ask them this: “If gender is a social construct then why don’t you feminists just deconstruct minding being raped for a change?”

  18. Btw, does the “Trash The Truth- er…. I mean “Trash The Lies” camp do this sort of emasculation?

  19. Anyone else notice the way that the one commentator used the word “cissy”? If that is not the lexicon of a gender guerrilla I don’t know what is. To my mind it was always “sissy” With an emphasis on the sister or “sis” part. What I have seen amongst the LGBT crowd is an attack on normal gender roles by insisting on a split between “cis” and “trans” as if human sexuality needs to borrow from the geographic terms relating to mountains rather than the classic normal and abnormal terminology.

  20. Now look what we have. The girls and math conversation starts again.

    Unfortunately, despite gains by women, social factors still play a big role in maintaining a gender gap in the science and engineering fields.

    And even though we’re starting to see more female doctors and executives on television, it’s still obvious there’s a lot more catching up to do in promoting women in roles that have predominately been a “man’s job.”

    I know that as a parent, I’m going to make sure my boys grow up knowing that they can do anything they set their mind to doing.

    I read a study done by Morgan Stanley, it was the results of a very expensive program in Australia designed to draw more girls into STEM. I think Morgan Stanley sponsored it. I found it at pursepundit.com and had a lengthy dialog about it with the woman who ran that blog. Adverts, FREE degrees, extra pay (premium to males) for women in STEM jobs.

    When it didn’t make much difference they fell to the same narrative Fox has fallen to….Its the socialization, tee shirts and stuff.

    All parts of the same whole.

  21. I did not catch the cis….now that you mention it though, yes. Cis and trans are also nomenclature in chemistry indicating the stereo-chemistry isomers, the shape, one meaning opposite of or across from and the other meaning beside or on the same side.

  22. Yeah empath, that shows that you have a different field of study than I do. The first time I ran into cis and trans was in my study of Rome. Cis-alpine and Trans-alpine Gaul.

  23. Evilwhite:
    If you want to piss them off even more, ask them ‘if gender is a social construct, why are 98% of transgenders male-to-female’? You don’t see a whole lot women lining up to become men.

    What’s interesting too, is that every account I’ve ever heard of a transgendered female, they always say that they feel ‘free’ or ‘liberated’ to become a woman. I suspect the reality in most cases is that what they really feel is liberated from being men.

  24. Art:
    LOL yes, I already knew that. But the point was that our society has now degenerated to the point where something that obvious would have to be discussed—and ultimately opposed like you said, with opprobrium heaped on the only one making sense.

    More seriously though, I think there’s going to have to be, at some point, a real discussion throughout the Manosphere about just how bad the social situation has become and what contingencies we should prepare for. Because I don’t see things getting any better anytime soon.

  25. We’re running out of time I think Eric. Events are moving along rapidly. I suspect that after the announcing of the next Fed head we’re going to see a currency crisis very soon afterward. I think the mask of democracy is going to fall off of what the U.S. has become for more people and the shock of it combined with a currency/economic/commercial crisis is going to cause a level of unrest and distress not seen for several generation. Our civilization is going back into the chrysalis and I’m afraid of what will emerge based on the DNA we are taking in with us.

  26. “WOW!” over at Dalrocks…………

    I’ve been reading the manosphere for about eight months. This is the first big fight I’ve witnessed. Has this occurred previously?

    This entire week within the manosphere will undoubtedly be non-empathogasmic.

    Over there I almost chimed in to encourage all to settle down, but I’m glad I kept my mouth shut.

    We outta have something like an octogon to fight stuff out in. Three rules:
    1. no eye gouges
    2. no groin shots
    3. no bites

    For the ladies perhaps a mud wrestling pit.

  27. Art:
    I think that might be true in the short run, but yes we’re running out of time. Most likely, I think the end game is going to look more like ‘Brave New World’. Once things have hit a wall; the new breed of strongman (unlike the tyrants of the 20th century) will come with welfare, promises of universal love and tolerance, all the drugs anyone can handle. Even work will be abolished (‘community service’ though will be strictly required instead). Everyone will be the same and equal in the new order and the dumbed-down, doped-up dupes will think they’re freer than they ever have been in history and living on a higher spiritual plane. Which in turn will make them eager to participate in good, old-fashioned witch-hunts wherever people appear who want to be ‘different’.

  28. Slightly O/T, but I know you’re something of a psychoanalyst. Wife of superstar loses custody after (among other things) being diagnosed with a bit of narcissistic personality disorder. She says:

    “I think we all have a little narcissistic personality disorder, especially those of us in the limelight,” Tameka added. “But I don’t think it’s something that affects your parenting.”

    Narcissistic mothers are still better parents than “busy men.” LOL.

  29. Eric, I think that the enemies of God are bringing the nations together to be ruled by God, when the nations of this Earth become the nations of our God. The purpose of revealing the mystery of iniquity is so that the mystery of righteousness can be revealed when the enemies of God will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming. I don’t think that we are going to see a global new world order for more than 3 1/2 years. But that is just my end-times eschatology talking.

  30. Art:
    There are lots of speculations on the Last Judgement and how to interpret it. I don’t think what what’s on the horizon is a New World Order—but one localized to America mostly. I don’t think the upcoming regime will be the literal Antichrist either, although it will look like it in many ways. They may even try to cultivate an Antichrist image, as a way of smoking out Christians and so making them easier to round up.

  31. That may well be Eric. I think that they are lining us up for a total war with Islam. I see many of the precursor conditions aligning, we are being sent to the starting line. America has been the primary tool of the enemy since the “collapse” of the British and Soviet empires, the people here are going to get brought low. That, I believe is both the plan of the enemy AND the mercy of God. With the U.S. out of the way a worldwide Pandora’s Box will be sprung and I think the enemy is going to be standing there to pick up the pieces, tie them in a bow and hand them to our Savior.

  32. Pingback: Lightning Round -2013/08/21 | Free Northerner

  33. Here are some of the thought exercises that I work on in my waking moments.

    What does the world without the USA look like?
    What does the world without US foreign aid look like?
    What does the world without the US military look like?
    Who is going to settle scores that won’t right now because of the US military?
    China and Taiwan?
    North and South Korea?
    Pakistan and India?
    What does the world look like with a unified Arab people?
    What does the world look like when Iran has nuclear weapons?
    What kind of world sees a Damascus flattened by a nuclear warhead?
    What kind of world sees a Jerusalem flattened by a nuclear warhead?
    How do Zionists, followers of Christ, Muslims and secularists respond to Israel ceasing to exist?
    What will the US look like as it descends into Third World status?
    What will it be like to live here after it has?

    That’s the kind of thinking that the Lord has had me doing for the last 25 years. He sends a lot of dreams, books and Bible verses my way. Most of the time I don’t like it but I don’t seem to have been given much of an out.

  34. Byword, like when a proper noun takes on an notorious connotation. Such as Nazi Germany, Sodom and Gomorrah, Charles Manson, Cher and so forth.

    “And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee. Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it. Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit. Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity. All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume. The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low. He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.”
    (Deu 28:37-44)

    “Thou makest us a reproach to our neighbours, a scorn and a derision to them that are round about us. Thou makest us a byword among the heathen, a shaking of the head among the people.”
    (Psa 44:13-14)

    There are more, but I think this gives you the gist.

    “You remember the USA?”
    “Yeah, man did those guys ever blow it”.

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