The Hamster Whisperer (and his son)

It stands to reason that at some point in a marriage a man will have to find a way to communicate with his wife’s hamster. Hopefully these times are rare, and brief per. Because when they happen, chewing the bottom off a 1960’s coke bottle can start to look easy comparatively, like fishing in a barrel, tending to plastic plants, or taking the necessary ingredients and machines and making ice.

Lets walk through an example, from someone I know.

Stage-Couple has just gotten into the truck to go to a track meet. The wife (called “wife” from here on), picks up a piece of paper, sees that it is an invoice from a recently hired lawn chemical service, and a conversation busts out.

Wife: Why are they invoicing us before they even do the service?

Husband: Oh, they came the other day, i saw them here

Wife: Then why is the yard not green?

(took hubby a second, then he realized she meant the green color that some companies add to the chemicals to show its been applied)

Husband: This company must not add the green color, or they will on the next treatment, maybe, but i saw the two men and the truck and they were spraying the yard

Wife: Did they have a professional looking truck? Did it look like a decent sized company? Were they wearing uniforms?

[ETA: normally he would have stopped this here, or at the very least, just below]

Husband: yes yes and yes

Some quiet minutes…

Wife: Did they do the back yard, are you sure they did the back yard?

[Here is where absolutely an intervention would have occurred. It would likely have been some kind of sarcastic zinger, which works nearly every time. I’ve added these qualifiers because some are misunderstanding and recommending the man just needs to learn how to deal with such fitness tests…and that is not the point of the post. This is not a game teaching moment]

Husband (the tiny flicker of irritation, but keeping it hidden): I didn’t literally see them do the back yard but I cant imagine why they wouldn’t

Wife: I guess we will see when the weeds don’t die in the back

Husband: So, you don’t trust them? Do you generally distrust folks we choose to do business with?

Wife: No, I trust people, I already explained to you the reason I asked about the back yard was the lack of green color painted on the grass.

Pause for unpacking, or stop to scream.

For the people reading along who did not catch what just happened, I submit that you may do the same thing I’m illustrating. Its a thing done that the doer isn’t even aware is being done, its a brilliant way of closing the drapes behind you as you pass through a conversation however you feel like passing through, and having things ready made to dissemble and obfuscate if challenged. And you are 100% sincere in not seeing what happened. Go read the exchange again.

For those who saw it immediately, and especially the men, g’head, nod knowingly, empathetically dare I allow, because you know you’ve smelled this smell somewhere; it isn’t phantom emotional deja vu, its happened to you too. Admit it.

Someone I know thought he would take a risk. he though that this exchange was brief enough and simple enough that if he laid it back out, tit and tat, and pointed out, for example, that the lack of green cannot account for the suspicion about the back yard because that matter had been dispensed with at the very start. He thought he could try and illustrate something, maybe for the teen son who was listening.

He failed. He attempted to ascertain, “are you generally suspicious of contractors or of this contractor?” She and he own a retail type business. They had been accused of absurd corner cutting that, if ever embarked upon, would lead to such a complicated layering of lies for such a low return on the investment in dishonesty that it would not be worth it. Its silly, silly like 9/11 was an inside job and and the Illuminati run the fed.

But his failure was not really about all that. it was they he forgot something he knows. Its a weird thing, a thing that you can know and have to re-learn often….both. Unique. He forgot that once wife decides to invest in something, she may decide to dump the investment later, but she is damned well gonna hold through the little market correction they were having.

Finally, and just between us, he was left with a bad taste in his mouth because he wanted, more than anything, for her to realize that asking him if the dudes sprayed the back yard was like saying he was not capable to handle little things like the lawn service without someone coaching him on all the right accountability to lay out.

After the track meet, when speaking to his son, husband discovered that the son had followed along, correctly, in real time, to the whole conversation, and he understood not only the head fake of raising the green color again, but more importantly the implied challenge to husbands ability to do the most basic things. This is important because son doesn’t see this a lot. I suspect most homes today have it as routine, and the husband just adjusts frame lower and moves on. So, in a lemonade from lemon’s kind of way, this happening afforded some inheritance, in advance, or hamster whispering skills.

May it serve him well in choosing and maintaining his own hamster one day.

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67 thoughts on “The Hamster Whisperer (and his son)

  1. It’s the little things that build up to be not so little things anymore, isn’t it? This was a great real life example of a woman’s disrespect. We, as women, can control this. So, while you show men how to be hamster whisperers, I’ll attempt to persuade women to put a muzzle on the hamster.

  2. SD, I was surprised that your husband didn’t catch it. May I ask, did he say, “but what if they didnt spray the yard? or were you just adding that as the sort of obvious potential objection to my point.?

    I am 50 years old and not prone to paying folks willy nilly, but i am also not prone to suspicion, and I ask this because in this very particular example, I actually know a few men who would have been very overdone about verifying that the work was done. I suppose I simply am different than that, and cant really debate personal taste.

    Its always struck me as a supreme distraction and waste of time to see the world that way, I tend to use a negative question as my guiding principle…”whats my downside?”. In this case, the downside is exercising my right in the agreement to have them return and do it again. But for sure, I know men who would have had to have seen the spraying done to feel good about paying the bill. In my case I saw PART of the spraying and assumed that the company isnt so strapped for profits that they come and make sure to be seen spraying, swivel their heads looking around as they skip places to save some chemicals.

    Wife and i own a dry cleaner in another state. We used to live hear the dry cleaner and though we never actually worked in it (have manager) we were there a lot. People would come in and accuse us of pressing their cloths but not cleaning them. If they knew the process that a dry cleaner follows they would know that that would be a nightmare. Its like an assembly line and take a part out and the process breaks.
    Imagine, then, the lawn company telling their employees, “Pssst, hey, in case an owner sees you spraying the front lawn, then the owner leaves, g’head and skip the back, snicker, hee hee, just think we be rollin’ in money soon”

    Minutia, But I work with a guy who will visit Walmart, Target, Lowes and Home Depot before the will purchase a toilet flapper. Each their own.

  3. The other thing this does is decrease the husbands attraction to the wife, because no, its not just “show up naked” as we are taught, yuk yukking from the pulpit.

    One other thing. It is more than just the fitness test aspect. It was the technique. The extremely clever re-raising of the green color, when that had been dealt with in the beginning and was not even possible as the explanation for the fitness test.
    I wonder though, is that an overt display of clever, or, as I suspect, is it not an example of what is REALLY meant when we hear how much better women are verbally than men? I think the later, and always question that claim when its made. I have tons of theories as to the why and how of women being able to instinctively rationalize things away, I think mainly for her own benefit, even it it makes no logical sense.

    ???????

  4. My own theory Empath is that the rationalization hamster is to protect women from difficult truths. Women don’t handle worry as well as men, and the Hamster serves to redirect and refocus their worry.

    The green grass, or the lack thereof, was not the source of the woman’s worry here. Something else was. But it was easier and less costly to her mental well-being to transfer that worry onto the grass than to address the problem face on. I think this plays into the passive/aggressive nature of women. Men confront things directly, whereas women do so from the side. That was at play here. The woman was worried about something, and wanted to be reassured. But rather than tackle the source head-on, she uses a proxy. The goal, I suppose, is for that proxy issue to be resolved, and the resulting assurance from that resolution would transfer to the real issue.

    A least, that is the theory. Completely illogical… but then again, I am a man.

  5. My own theory Empath is that the rationalization hamster is to protect women from difficult truths.

    To use the word “protect” here would indicate a positive thing, It’s not, it is evil. It keeps women subject to their irrational thought processes and works as a rift between her and her husband. It holds her back from accepting responsibility.

    Ever watched a child who has been forced to apologize with a submissive heart? Her whole countenance changes. As if she appreciated being corrected. She gives hugs and becomes very helpful and obedient. – Same thing with a woman.

  6. Interesting take SD. I associated protect with a neutral meaning. I wonder what word would convey an evil intent to shield?

    You say that it is evil, and you may be correct. But I wonder if it really is positive, in the sense that women need protection from harsh truths. What if most women really can’t take it? That is, they are so emotionally frail that if they were forced to confront enough harsh truths that they would crack? Have you considered the possibility that most women are not capable of truly rational thought processes?

    Or perhaps this is a product of our fallen civilization. Maybe if we raised our women better, then this latent ability wouldn’t be nourished and they would be able to take the world as it is.

  7. I agree with SD that it is evil, because it instinctively is building is rationale for evil doing, walling off accountability. Accountability is a fluid term for women. I keep using the same example of the woman who posted that she believes at some point marriage should afford happiness and she was ready to toss in the towel. The woman posted that at a women’s Christian marriage blog, a blog which has the ostensible purpose of addressing things from a red pill perspective (albeit mainly on sexual issues). Several women bloggers commented afterwards and likely thought they had said things that held the comment maker to account. Fact is, not one of them challenged her straight on for her assertion.
    Accountability, therefore, within the woman’s own mind regarding her own behavior must be an extremely slippery concept. The ability to layer in little reasons is helpful to her.
    Men seem to either dismiss sin flippantly, resist sin doggedly, regret sin intensely, or rationalize sin in a flawed but straightforward way that is easy to see and expose. Women stir up Tasmanian Devil degrees of dust and throw off incredible interference distracting from the issue, hence avoiding accountability.

  8. Not being capable of truly rational thought processes is very different than not taking responsibility for bad behavior. A five year old is not capable of rational thought all the time. But MUST be held responsible for bad behavior or he/she grows up to be a monster.

    A woman’s brain “cracks” when she is repeatedly allowed to justify and rationalize (lie and deceive). The women I know on the most medications are the women who have not been held accountable by anyone. Not parents, teachers, friends, husbands…no one.

  9. Being held accountable channels the all over the place thinking a bit. But does the non-stop wondering, “did they spray the back yard?” ever really stop, or just get held back from being verbalized?

  10. It gets held back from being verbalized, at first. If not being allowed to shit test is new. Continually thinking about the back yard is fretting, worrying, etc.; behaviors that are not in line with God’s word. It takes time to learn how to let it go and cast out the thought when it comes to mind.

  11. SD, absolutely, and the churchian women who do this consistently lack the ability to see that they are double minded on this. When presented with an actual problem, say the budget has come up short, they will rush to scripture about worry.

    The next day they will circle around and double check on hubby and his efforts.

  12. The question women ponder all their lives is “how much must I suffer?” I agree with Donal that she wasn’t really asking about the yard, she was asking if she could trust you to spare her suffering. The suffering question was posed in the context of “Will you force me to suffer a weedy yard”, but it could have just as well been “will you make me suffer?”.

    And I think that your interpretation of how we handled the situation with the lady who was unhappily married doesn’t take into consideration the enormous fear women have of suffering. She was essentially saying “How much must I suffer for my marriage”..and you seem to be suggesting we tell her “horribly..now get over it” and then expect her not to freak out. The indirect approach is what we took..which was that prayer will give you peace and wisdom over your situation. Which it will..though it may well be true that she will experience horrible suffering every day for the rest of her life. God may be calling her to terrible and unavoidable suffering for the purpose of righteousness, but the only thing that will give her PEACE and not initiate the fight or flight response is prayer.

    Generally, you can deal with a woman head on when she is removed from her suffering by a few degrees. Thats when you can be very direct and tell them that marriage may result in suffering. Its abstract and they accept it because it doesn’t conjure The Fear.

    But lets say that your wife is pregnant and you just found out that the baby may not make it to term. The husband will react to that head on and start planning their future around it. The woman is more likely to say “No. I don’t believe that. I will make it to term and have a healthy baby” You could call that her rationalization hamster. She goes home and carries on as if she never heard this dire prediction. She paints the nursery, builds the crib, and reads the baby name books. She is unwilling to accept the suffering that awaits her because to do so is too much trauma. In fact, if she did you could almost guarantee she would go into such a deep depression that she would be almost useless. In this case..as Donal suggested..her hamster is working as a shield.

    SD may be correct that she should accept the information and not “hamsterize” it..but I am not entirely sure because in the Bible the woman’s hamster is praised when it isn’t used to excuse sin..like the woman who bled for 12 years.

    So I am more inclined to say that sin ought to be called out whenever possible, but that women should not be expected to accept suffering with the gallantry and courage that men do. They are just not built for it. What you can do is help them depend on prayer more than on their actions to avoid pain. So to the woman who is desperate we don’t say “suck it up”…because she may simply be unable to suck it up without some serious psychosomatic trauma. What we CAN do is refer her to prayer and spiritual direction because that gives her hope and the ability to go on without a mental collapse.

  13. To add…

    A mark of spiritual maturity in women is when they don’t fret so easily because they have learned to suffer with grace.

  14. Mort. No. Your hamster is speaking. The man has been married 23 years. Never has the women suffered, actually,despite what her unreliable emotions may be saying. This is about her, and sin.
    You also need to realize that this is not the norm for this man and woman. A little bird told me there was monthly sloughing involved. But lets sit this specific example aside.

    I am shocked. Suffer with grace? No. She must confront her suffering and put it away. he cannot do that for her. And churchian wisdom is “listen, don’t fix”…how would that apply here?

    The woman who bled for 12 years is a weak analogy. Yes, that woman took on her suffering, but her suffering was not worry born of a man’s requisite specific performance of a task that would ease her MIND.

    The man seems to be saying saying “get over it” ?

    Yes, absolutely, she must weigh the downside….a weedy yard….and get over it, rather than use the force of her shit tests to have her husband pander to her sin, the sin of worry. She must have some agency, some requirement to at the very least filter real potential suffering from needless hamster wheel spinning.

    Do you not think you have perhaps over played this a bit?

  15. I don’t understand what you are saying. Christian life is full of suffering and women fear suffering more than men.

    She can’t suddenly decide to not suffer. That isn’t an option. Nor can the man “fix” her suffering. All she can do is learn to bare her burdens quietly.

    I don’t actually think the mans job is to pander to her. I think it is his job to understand her and act accordingly. Sometimes you rebuke her, sometimes you ignore her, sometimes you comfort her. It depends on the situation.

    In the case of the weedy garden I wouldn’t comfort her..I’d tell her to shuddup.

  16. I don’t know if I overplayed this because I am very confused by your theology. From what I understand you think women shouldn’t suffer. I am saying they should suffer gracefully.

  17. This is a human issue as much as a Christian issue. I cannot see the man yielding to sin. Worry is sin. Even telling her to suddup is really only telling her that her sin (worry) is OK just keep it to herself. The worry is the problem, and that is a theologically sound assertion. You seem to be supportive of worry as a state of being. I struggle myself with worry. Ive been told its not a good place for a Christian man, or person. Ive gleaned that also from scripture. Why would i want to sort of allow for that in my evaluation of someone else’s thought processes?

  18. I don’t think worry and fear are synonymous. Worry is your thoughts but fear is your state of being. Jesus had fear in the Garden of Gethsemane.

    If you see someone charging at you with a hatchet you are going to experience fear. You don’t even have to have a single thought in your head..your body will react for you.

    You can take your thoughts captive but you can’t change your state of being without the help of supernatural Grace. Your subconscious is not within the realm of your control. This is why St Paul said the body is weak but the spirit is willing. We don’t have absolute control over our bodies.

    You said I am writing from a fem-centric perspective. This is true..but I don’t see how that invalidates what I am saying. I can tell you with absolute certainty that even when I successfully control my thoughts I still experience symptoms of fear.

    Peter says “live with your wives in understanding because they are the weaker vessel”. I don’t think that means pander to her every mood, but it does mean to take her psychological weaknesses into account when dealing with her.

  19. Empath:
    I think that what you’re calling a ‘hamster’ is misandry. Women in our culture are instilled with a hatred of men that they never lose. The reason for this is because ALL women; unless they are constrained by social, moral, or legal norms will automatically rebel against dominant men and pursue dysfunctional weaklings. They also turn from children and opt for abortion and abandomnent if permitted to do so.

    Feminism is against patriarchy; but patriarchy is synonomous with civilization itself. All feminist ‘liberation’ has accomplished is to liberate women from civilized behavior and release the worst aspects of feminity upon society. Women are educated and conditioned to accept competing with and hating men as inferiors as normal behavior.

    The wisest course for men is not to allow themselves to get into this situation in the first place. Make no mistake about it: women educated under feminism hate all men and will treat men accordingly.

  20. My husband would have said, “I said they were here and they did the work. If they didn’t do what they were supposed to do, what are you going to do about it? Nothing. You’re going to expect me to deal with it, right? So drop it. ”

    There are things that would be my problem to deal with and he would tolerate more of my “worry” in such cases. Each situation is different.

    Morticia, I agree with your take on suffering being a part of life, but any woman who takes the idea of having to pull weeds as suffering is spoiled. And I say this as one whose father made his children weed all the time and examined to make sure we pulled from the roots, LOL.

    The issue here is one of trust. Do we as wives, trust our husband’s word and leadership? Once husband said the job was done, why wasn’t it enough? Most men, having vouched for a job being done, are more than willing to deal with the fallout if it turns out that it wasn’t done.

    As for hamsters, mine must be in overdrive because I don’t see one here. I see a wife who starting wigging out because her grass wasn’t green after they paid for service, Sounds hormonal to me. But then, I don’t really care if my grass is super green so long as it’s not brown.

  21. Just to try and clear something up. Elspeth, the green is a color that they include in the spray on chemicals so that when they do it you can see where they sprayed. They do that on one application during the year, usually in April.

    Your point about the man being the one to deal with the fallout of his failure is dead spot on and should be the thing that prevents “the suffering”. There was never any chance that the wife would have to pull weeds, nor would the husband have to pull weeds. Heck the teens would pull weeds if that was to be done. The risk was simple….call the company and they return and spray again. That’s it.

    The hamster is, if you reread, the fact that she inserted as an excuse, the lack of green coloring on the grass, when that lack had already been questioned and answered and done, so, her questions were NOT motivated by the lack of green coloring, that was a hamster rationalization of the wrong headed challenge to the man regarding the yard. It was too clever by half, it worked in the moment (for her) but not in the over all context. It was at best disingenuous.

  22. Part of the confusion is that there are like 4 different conversations in one thread. There is the OP conversation. There is the theorizing done by Donal. There is SD’s comments about whether all hamsters are sinful hamsters..and then there is the conversation about fear and worry.

    I didn’t do a very good job of saying what exactly I was responding to, which caused even more confusion. I seem to do that a lot..assuming people can follow my stream of consciousness. I need to stop being lazy and actually quote what I am responding to.

  23. I am saying there are several elements to the conversation that resulted in several streams of thought.

    So when I was mostly thinking about feminine psychology and how it influences rationalization it looked like I was excusing the bad behavior of women when that wasn’t my intent at all.

  24. Pingback: It’s Time to Let go | On the Rock

  25. Some good points raised since I left, but I still think that I was correct in my assessment that the real issue wasn’t the lack of a green yard. Rather, there are latent worries that the woman has, and she wants her man to settle them.

    As SD has said eloquently many times, women need to learn to control their worry and how they express it. I think that when you come down to it, women are just naturally inclined to worry and fret, and look to a man to solve this for them. This is where the Power attribute in LAMPS comes in. A man with a lot of Masculine Power will allay many feminine worries before they manifest themselves. But mostly it requires women to cultivate their quiet and gentle spirits, trusting in their husbands and in God to see things through.

  26. please delete my comment after reading it, this is just for you Empath not the world. I care about our relationship our I wouldn’t bother and I hope we can find peace around this issue.

  27. I deleted it. Know that I badly desire to make a post and point out of the whole thing but will not because I am too directly inside it now and that’s not nice. But it gets to some really controversial and important stuff.

    But I stand by my assertions that she has not been held to account. I note the very first comment on one of those posts immediately cries abuse. This, and the manner in which these dynamics are handled, are not different for red pill or traditional people….or at least should not be. I would assert that a red pill view clears off lots of preconception and lets the man and the woman both start at the same place in terms of culpability, then the FACTS can delineate the ultimate skew.

  28. I’ve studied this post for months and didn’t understand it until a few nights ago, but I have had a very strong sense that it was extremely important.

    There is a devilry at work in the daughters of Eve, and woe to the Joe Schmoe who is slow and lets it go (me). As for me, all too often I’ve got my airtight case and take it to the missus to tell it like it is, and end up walking away shaking my head.

    The recent incident didn’t involve my missus at all, but another’s. During cleanup after a sports season-ending banquet, a member of the planning committee approached me and asked if I wanted to take home the leftover cake. American grocery store cakes being to me one of the most disgusting things on the planet, and my children having enough sweets, I said, “No, please, we don’t want it.” Forthwith, she went to one of my daughters and said, “Do you want this cake.” What do you think she said? “Sure!” This lady says, “See? I’ll box it up for you.” I said, “I don’t want it.” A few minutes later she came to me with the box and asked, “Where do you want this?” I said, “I DON’T WANT IT.” Next thing I knew, my wife has it. I told this lady, “It looks as though we ended up with that cake.” She said, “Yes. Sorry!” It ended up in the car. Admittedly I could have intervened more strongly at any time, but like the frog being boiled, it started as a small thing and escalated. I was more astonished than anything at the continual dripping.

    As soon as we got home, I escorted it to the trash can. It would have been really bad if it had got eaten. I immediately sent her husband an e-mail (I don’t think he had a clue what went on):

    “John, The cake never made it in my house. I intercepted it (I was in a different car from the cake), and saw it right to the rubbish bin. I should not have let things go so far but was rather stunned at the persistence. This is not a petty thing. Does no mean other than no? Do my wife and children overrule my wishes? I have difficulty enough with rebellion in my own house without having to deal with the overflow of it from someone else’s.”

    She answered: “Sorry about that. What I heard you say was that you didn’t want any cake, but that your kids would like it.”

    They don’t study it, nor do they see it, and if they do see it it’s completely deniable. Devil’s disciples! Must become wary as a serpent.

  29. Shortcut, for those who didn’t see it at first: The wife’s problem is that she imagines she ought to be in charge of *everything*. She feels she ought to have been told as soon as the lawn men arrived, so she could hover over the lawn like a drone, spotting where each droplet landed in real time, and then criticized in detail the distribution of droplets, and then she should have been awarded an extra 3.2% discount for her deigning to perform her omnipotent and omniscient efforts. Seriously.

  30. JF12,

    It’s far more devious than some crude need for control or micromanagement. It’s a need to exercise an influence to thoroughly discombobulate any logical discussion or accountability, to whitewash the history of it so she can just keep skipping right along, whistling joyfully, supposedly oblivious to her wake of destruction. “All I meant was…”, and who are you to argue? Bill Burr talks about his wife smacking him upside the head for not listening to her while he was under the headphones. As soon as she got a rise out of him, she said, “We’ll talk about this when you calm down.” There’s a hell of a lot of power in it.

  31. jf12, it sounds as if the wife is extremely insecure. If you don’t mind some advice:

    There are ways to work with this situation. Mostly I recommend knowing that God wants to change her in order to let her know she is loved. To do this He is going to break her as sure as the Sun rises (because He is a loving God). Not being the scapegoat for this is going to take a strong frame and a determination to resist reacting when we should remain proactive. Know that God wants to help your wife, know that you are her covering and find out how God would use you. In the end it’s a faith thing and none of us get to where He wants us without His help.

    With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward. For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.
    (Psa 18:25-27)

    Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
    (Eph 5:22-24)

    You are the head of your wife whether she submits or not just as Christ is the head. She still has free will but you have a strong spiritual suasion. God gave it to you.

  32. I gotta split them hairs GIL. Please do not take offense. Unless I am reading that incorrectly, which is possible as I am up late doing mundane work, you kinda sorta did something that is actually a tool women use extremely well in discourse. I do not think you intended to be tricky, and Im not sure they do 100% of the time but Ive grown convinced they are aware some of the time. The technique is to respond to something specific with a general comment that is 100% true but often is near zero percent relevant. Something about barking out a true statement must release a chemical in the female brain that clouds her from caring that yes, she made a true statement, but having no bearing on the matter. In your case here its even a level more insidious when misused (not suggesting you did that). You do this when you say:

    I recommend knowing that God wants to change her in order to let her know she is loved.

    Because it IS a true AND relevant statement the problem is does it truly functionally apply to the precise scenario involved. Not just apply…..does it have utility….is it a wrench that literally will fit the bolts on the broken machine, or is it just a good wrench in the toolbox.

    The other hair to split is the statement:

    There are ways to work with this situation.

    without then offering an example, thoroughly then testing the hypothesis by assuming various reactions she may have and then your counter and so forth.

    The thing is, there may be ways to work with it, and there may not. That is in Gods hands, and her free will. Some wills are not broken in the sense that the person changes. They are broken “in the end”, but back to the utility for the husband…..where is it?

    That a man must remain steadfast is true. That he should be told change is coming may be another

  33. @Empath, I for one have never seen God not send a Laban to deal with a Jacob. I have no faith in humans, wives or otherwise

    Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
    (Jer 17:5)

    However I do take this whole thing as a matter of faith. I believe that God gives grace to husbands even if the wife or the culture doesn’t. It is God that desires for men to receive honor as we represent a type of Christ. That doesn’t strip our wives of free will or relieve us of the consequences of being married to a rebellious woman. God knows about that:

    Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
    (Jer 3:14)

    Before our wives are rebels towards us they are rebels towards the Lord and that was the point I was trying to express. I don’t want to come off like a man-up ministry but it can be a delicate balance, the distinction that can be hard to get across is the we are to be obedient to Him and not give any credence whatsoever to the culture. Being a husband is still a calling He has for us no matter how twisted up the world has made it. That is a thorny and tangled knot today. I would still rather have faith that God can use us to redeem and restore what is clearly broken. I still don’t like the alternative.

  34. Also, on my third reading of you comment I see your point I think. I think the “wrench” is useful in two ways, as an encouragement to the man (God is on his side and is working the problem too) and as a way to establish a strong frame by realizing that encouragement. The world sucks, and feminism is attempting to emasculate us, but they ARE going to lose (one way or the other). Losing sight of that is defeat. To me, knowing we’ll win, is a plan (if not a “wrench”) I always want to have close to hand.

  35. GIL
    I was a bit rushed and want to discuss this more. Hopefully I will have some time later. I am not disagreeing at all. I am saying however that talking to men who are in an acute period, if one wishes to make an earthly difference, means more than this. Maybe its me, I struggle a lot with answers like those. I feel a little bit like someone at a funeral where there is some well intended person walking around saying, “well remember all things work together……”

  36. Yes, I get that. It’s cliche. I’ve had it done to me, I have been asked when delivering the bad news of a miscarriage to a friend “Did you pray?”. I get it. It seems like to me sometimes that the manosphere can be nothing BUT men in an acute period and that is the cliche. The whole time I’m grieving and people come up to insensitively remind me of Roman’s 8:28 I know that it is true. Sometimes I am not convinced that Christian manospherians even realize or remember that God wants their marriages to work and that far from simply demanding they man up, He would make a way and give them grace. That to me is the difference. I think if we’ve lost that we’ve lost faith and THAT is an acute period.

    I’ve sat in conspiracy theory “circles” my whole life, it seems like the last thing people wallowing in that fear and despair want to hear is that God is still in control but it is true and it is relevant in my opinion. Romans 8:28 is precisely for those times if not from the people who spout it. In grief is where I have owned that verse, I don’t think you get it any other way.

  37. @GiL, if I were empathologism my splitting-hairs cautioning would stem from the spirit of James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters

    It is true my wife would like to believe herself in charge, as a god knowing what is good and what is evil, to sit by the door and judge the going out “where do you think you’re going” and coming in “when in the world have you been”, but the example in this post was Stage-Couple wife.

    The “faith that God can use us to redeem and restore what is clearly broken” is a good faith, but without works it is dead. What is needed is a good wrench, and as a Game-teaching moment, something that would have made her Stifle It! instantly and to her horror and shame, instead of leaving him “with a bad taste in his mouth because he wanted, more than anything, for her to realize that” she really was deliberately treating him like an idiot.

  38. My shorter reply: faith that God will work things out is a dead faith if you don’t have works.

  39. Marriage: helping men feel more Christlike, i.e. unjustly condemned, crucified for His wife’s sins, etc.

  40. And as far as a “wrench” is concerned. Living in the security that God is control is in fact a viable tool in your scenario. When the wife starts to frenetically spin out on whether every blade of glass was appropriately applied I have a trove of Bible verses that can be used for HER anxiety.

    Calmly quoting:

    Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
    (Php 4:4-7)

    Can have a wonderful effect. It is a good one to memorize if you run into this scenario on a regular basis.

    And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest? Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
    (Luk 12:22-31)

    At the risk of sounding really cheesy: the dude abides.

  41. Remembering AWALT, our stage-husband needs to understand that if he is wound up like Rocky the Squirrel on a Coke binge that he won’t ever pass a fitness test. She is insecure because she knows he isn’t in a passing frame, she KNOWS this. Being at peace IS the wrench. If she persists (and she will if he has failed fitness in the past) has to be extra tough and use the verses I outlined above to brush her back. He lets her know that he is at peace and it is Godly to be so and that she isn’t because she is not. That puts her on an island and by staying resolute passes the test.

  42. GIL, I have been in the crucible and been ground to duct there. It took me longer than most to find ANY of the peace of God. Maybe that’s why I see “pat” on most answers. I assure you it is not because I just want to wallow in some acute teeth gnashing frustration as you rightly observe many appear to feat upon. The closest thing i can think of to describe how I comport on these things is that I speak the truth (in love) with that being a well intended gut check for men allowing them to really receive, then, whatever they get.

    Another lyric comes to mind.

    We gave the world what it saw fit, and what we get
    Sam Beam….Redemption Fern

    Ive written about it many times. When I was casting about thinking i was crazy and the world WAS rightly ordered with all the evangelical feminism and I was the odd man out, there would have been a way to present the truth of what you are saying that both stayed with truth and allowed for me to discover I was not crazy. During that time, perhaps had I had an exchange, back and forth, with someone like you it may have done it. But I didnt. ALL I got was the true, but pat part of what you said. I have many tangents to take off this about how I have heard men sharing the gospel itself that way and how off putting I find that (not saying its off putting to most/many/all) I stood in a parking lot where I was renting an apartment during my marital separation some 10 years back, and there was a crusty older fellow with that Duck Dynasty manner but clean cut, and I was off the rails during this period so I was with the rebel rousers cooking on a grill and drinking acting foolish. I hadnt been up close to a Christian in months so i was initially pleased inside that he was doing what he was doing. He was sure quoting lots of scripture, to a bunch of people who thought not only scripture was fantasy, but saw zero reason in their lives , good or bad, to even consider. I liken telling a man in a truly stressed marriage situation anything like that
    as an initial thing will slam and lock him up. FIRST paint the realistic picture, THEN explain how God is in that picture, that inserting God into a picture will not make the picture perfect, it will make the picture a huge juxtaposition of perfection verses whatever else is in it.
    This is very different than one brother to another saying “have you prayed?” Yes that can annoy in certain times, in fact when talking to another Christian man about something i am facing and he says first you need to pray, that’s annoying every single time because its condescending at that point.
    Christians have a lot to learn about being Christians, and the answer is not seeker sensitive churches and watered down Word. I don’t claim to have the answer.
    We agree that the man must see that things may not change. Here I disagree that its a “game teaching moment” or whatever because I think that is making game the pat advice instead of God the pat advice and I don’t like pat period. The man must realize that like anything else in this life, he has to just reach a point where he knows there is a purpose and it may not be completed to his awareness even but he should be encouraged….even if his wife keeps busting his balls. Gamers will call that some game awareness thing. No, its a God awareness thing and its FAR more efficacious than game.

  43. She is insecure because she knows he isn’t in a passing frame, she KNOWS this. Being at peace IS the wrench. If she persists (and she will if he has failed fitness in the past) has to be extra tough and use the verses I outlined above to brush her back.

    Here is where we disagree. It seems (maybe Im wrong) that you have formed hard linkage between cause and effect with his passing tests. IF he does X she will feel Y. I disagree. There are pages I could write about the ways she can seem to be noticing his frame but still stays ahead of him in terms of manipulation and such.

    The other, in my case quoting scripture to my wife has mixed results. If she grieves , worries, or something, its good. In the cases you mentioned, I would get back a boatload of scripture from her that SEEMED to neutralize what I said. I have a personal rule…I do not argue scripture unless the point of the argument is HUGE, grievous, like that. But not with my wife about our comportment. My point is, I could say it and walk away. If I stayed, Id hear the rebuttal and have to walk away angry.

  44. It may seem “pat” but God doesn’t debate us. He doesn’t await rebuttal. He doesn’t get down on our emotional level and roll around in our pile of stink. In short, He has a strong frame. Even in the most metaphysical universal sense the “higher power” is in fact above all this. You don’t have to call Him Jehovah or Jesus. If we want to play emotional games with our women we are going to reap the whirlwind, they’ll drag us down to their level and beat us with experience. If that seems “pat” I guess I don’t know what to say.

    Yes, we are emotional, yes we can get frazzled and angry and want to argue and be right and have are needs met. This all carries weight. Do we expect empathy? From whom? This was the hardest part of the red pill for me to swallow. My wife is neither my affirmation, my buddy, my source or my provision and waking up to that fact made me very alone. I don’t think I’m the only one struggling with this.

    I don’t like the “off-putting” part. That seems pat to me. That seems like a version of the feminine, “I know it’s true but it’s the TONE that you delivered it in.” schtick. This seems like a rerun of conversations had on CF to me. If I’ve stumbled into someones legitimate raw spot I didn’t mean to, it can be difficult communicating via writing when things are sensitive and a relationship hasn’t been established.

  45. Maybe the manoshpere isn’t really given to non-pat answers. Blogging and commenting doesn’t have the capacity to replace fellowship. Trying to lay that at the feet of a blogger or a commenter seems unfair. Not sure what we are doing here.

  46. You misunderstood me GIL, almost completely. I plainly stated it was what the man said. How can what the man said be like the feminine reaction about tone. Tone vs content, isnt it content we represent when we encounter that garbage about tone? I cannot see me suggesting I was putt of by HOW he said it. Ive reread it 5 times and cannot find anything analogous to tone. I think you’ve somehow reacted to something you may not like or agree with by inferring something on me that wasnt there. Its fine we disagree, lets be clear on what. Its particularly off because I have been and remain a huge fan of Christian thinkers and speakers who are renowned for their seemingly angry or strong tone. It isn’t the tone of the Duck Dynasty guy that bothers me. Its not what he says that bothers me. Its what he says in what situation…..the two things together. It is truly like a man debating an atheist (I said debating not witnessing) using scripture as proof text. What I’m saying is in no way a compromise of faith and the fact that I need to say that is really the answer to he whole reason why the approach Im talking about is offputting. Its as if nothing is even an appropriate response to a man like that. its truly as if there are none as spiritual gigantic as the man like that and he will not allow him self to be known to have found common ground with anyone. Any outward piety, even in conversation, would be met with a raising of the piety bar. Any expression of agreement with something he says will be met with some way of suggesting, no, you cant agree because you dont yet truly understand. And to understand you must (insert something like “take on your cross and follow”) which is true but used as a rejoinder it is off putting because it keeps that man as kid of what?…..some sort of alpha Christian?

    That then pigeon holes me, in thios case, as a sneaky advocate for Christianity lite, or churchianity or whatever. Its a predesigned dialog and outcome the man is accustomed to having and you will not convince me that under all of it is not just another man doing what we do, AMOGing and peacocking of some fashion, and it has NO place in the context of what he was trying to do. Pure self promotion is no way to share the gospel.

    I dont recall the conversation at CF.

  47. Too many tracks running here. I thought I was the one being chastised for my pat answers and tone, being compared to the guy that is grinding Romans 8:28 into the grief stricken. That my appeal to faith was being consigned to irrelevance and that my explanations and attempts to clarify were being received as insensitive and oversimplified. Kind of feels like I was on the receiving end of a Rob Bell “Bullhorn Guy” criticism. Maybe something got lost in translation.

  48. God is unlikely to act in Casper’s marriage as He has elected not to act on millions of wives and elected not to act in millions of marriages.

  49. Rereading this thread, from where I joined it, I was thinking about what I had as a nebulous idea for a post that I had been ruminating on last week. I had been considering how my strength, my role as husband with my wife, my response to culture and fellowship, basically my entire world view stems from my faith in God. That strength, or moral suasion flows ACTIVELY from Him. It isn’t nor can it be posturing if it is true; it isn’t “game”. It’s what game is trying to imitate. It is the patriarchy that feminism so hates and desires to replace just as they are trying to dethrone God altogether.

    I believe in active grace; not unmerited favor but divine enablement. I am not a cessationist who thinks God wound up His creation and left for the duration. I don’t think we have a prayer standing up against the onslaught of feminism (and all the other tools of the enemy) if God is not WITH us. His sheep hear His voice. I think that pigeonholing God into that place where He doesn’t actively intercede into the hearts of men and the affairs of this world is a convenient way to escape His sovereign and omnipotent nature. It lets us off the hook and makes possible an excuse for us to live our own lives as we see fit. His kingdom is within us.

    It isn’t an intellectual exercise. It needs to come out of our skin. If putting our bushel on a hill is AMOGing, than Jesus was the ultimate alpha running nothing but game. Does anybody like where that is going? If God is an absent watchmaker and we are alone then we might just as well divorce our contentious women and move to the Brooks Range (MGTOW). Why sit and whine on the internet, it’s going to be dominated by feminism. (There is no hope……oh noes!)

  50. And I have a close brother like Duck Dynasty dude. I don’t want to come across that way. nor do I intend to. For years the best description of the relationship was AMOG.

    My advice is going to flow from my belief, if that is confusing to some people we can work on that.

    Some people are not confused by it in the least.

  51. People still have free will sfcton, they can still choose to disobey God, rebel and divorce. That neither means that God desires it or that He is standing mute. Yes, I know at times that is what it “feels” like and sometimes even what seems to make sense. If we let those feelings or that sense take primacy we are choosing not to give Christ that primacy. It’s a choice. Here is another sense, apart from God and His interventions it doesn’t take great imagination to see where this is all going. We aren’t even speed bumps standing in the way of the “progress” that is heading our way.

    My heritage is Christianity (not churchianity) it provides a culture that honors fatherhood, family, men and God. It makes sense as a worldview, it has order. It has taken feminism and the brainwashing of our people nearly a century to destroy this culture and I think the best way to counter this onslaught is to authentically LIVE this culture. That means that I have to obey God, study His word and be His disciple with everything I have. It’s not “game” or a way to be the boss in my household or even overcome just feminism. It is the way to overcome the world. If that makes me a zealot or unpopular at parties, I don’t care.

    And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    (Rev 12:11)

    When I share verses I’m not doing it to show off, I’m doing it because I believe that they are the truth and because I know the truth has had a real impact upon me and those around me. When I share them with my wife I’m not looking for an argument (although I will listen to the verses she shares even if I don’t believe they apply). My wife understands that she is not supposed to worry, by sharing I’m correcting her with the highest truth I know and not my opinion. Usually a look now will accomplish the same thing with her. Is my life perfect and pain free? Far from it. That wasn’t what was promised (unless you are talking about the pap being spouted out of churchianity) so I don’t expect to get what I want, although I can see where a bad batch of cognitive dissonance has been worked up by the “church”.

  52. GIL

    You were never the object of my words. I cannot possible remotely dream of making that comparison…..you to the guy in my example, because I was there in the flesh with that guy and was explaining how I felt….there….in person. Maybe you would strike me that way, maybe not, we have no idea. The thing is, I have friends and acquaintances and extended family just like that and they are not off putting to me. Because I KNOW they are not AMOGing. I also know some men like that who Ive known for years who I am CERTAIN are AMOGing.

    Hopefully you and I will meet some day and then I can let you know……(joking about the last part)

  53. Re: proof. I wonder, is there a more perfect example of a husband being crucified than a husband being frivorced?

  54. sfcton, okay you got me. God is neither sovereign nor omnipotent because he chose to honor the gift of free-will that He gave to His children. In point of fact, He is does limit His power when it comes to granting us to choose between liberty and sin.

    I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
    (Deu 30:19-20)

    There are no guarantees that our wives will choose life, but I will guarantee that God would have us choose life.

    As far as frivorce = Jesus bearing the weight of the whole worlds sins while suffering from separation from the Father I imagine it feels similar in theory. I also imagine if you got to experience both you’d see the difference. Keep this in mind, that sin of frivorce was carried by Jesus on the cross.

    Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
    (Heb 4:14-16)

  55. the sin of ________________ was carried to the cross. True no matter what fills the blank. We (humans) however not only react differently depending on whats in the blank, we even, truth be known, FEEL differently. And of course we do and that’s that.

    Now, a separate thought, because they are not mutually exclusive, is compassion for the victims of ____________. . Its here where the problem manifests. Telling women that the sin of frivorce is nailed to the cross is 100% true. Bit this gets to the exact main point of difference I have twith the FoTF’s and Family Life folks. They take utterly inconsistent approaches/attitudes/teaching on some blanks than they do on others. And frivorce is off limits.

    It whispers to women to do it. It offers forgiveness in advance of commission. Lord may there please come a day when stating one of your truths is not used as a form of rationalizing a sin that affects generations

  56. He elects to not act all the time. I did not say He lacks power or anything else. Simply He elects to not act. His choice. And divorce is proof that He elects to not act. Often.

    Everything you have replied with is crawfishing. You implied the Almighty would act/ work in a particular marriage, I said what I said and instead of saying anything useful you’ve replied with snark and a boat load of words. This, in part, is why the secular world looks down on Christains.

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