A one sided conversation with Dr. Moore

Dr. Moore, I had the chance to hear you speak the other day, when you gave a guest sermon at a local church. It was providential in that it was exactly about my favorite topic, and one I am well steeped in. I’d like to tell you a story if you’d be kind enough to hear me out.

You have to imagine that what I am about to describe is an iteration in time, where the generations preceding this chronological parenthetic have cycled through it and their present behavior and frame, as a result of that iteration, is part of the life of the hypothetical girl I use as my protagonist. The iteration reference should make sense after you hear me out.

Before I begin describing the potential cumulative effect of sermons like the one you delivered, which despite claims that the message is unique and representing a tidal shift, are the ubiquitous gold standard in marriage preaching, I want to tell you who I am and why I care about this so deeply.

I came into faith in a large Baptist church in 1994. Let me digress a bit. Raised intermittently attending church, then going on to get a technical education and a better than average grasp of things math and science, I thought I had all stuff figured out, arrogantly, through my own self perceived Newtonian wisdom. Enough on that. I married one of those girls who were saved in Sunday school, and, why she married me, an unbeliever, I do not know but I’m glad she did. Attending church for years with her, I found myself compelled and dug in to gain a better understanding of what all these very credible and kind people were really on about. One day I  responded to the traditional alter call and walked from the balcony, (where I hid) down the stairs, and up an aisle where I was met by a very large bear of a man who was on the pastoral staff. I reached for his hand, and he embraced me in his massive arms and torso and said, “is your name empath?He used my full name. Never met him, never went to any small meetings, was not involved whatsoever in that church, impossible. It turned out that the staff would take names from the cards visitors filled out (we’d been there for months so we had no newly turned in card), and pray for those people. I was on his list. He had not ever seen me and had no idea about me aside from the name, but he had been praying for me for months. He could have asked any man approaching if they were me. But he didn’t. He asked me. OK that’s my swerve into testimony, and it was profound for me. (I’ve also given the doubters what they would want in seeking the rational explanation.)

Certain things need to be explained when I speak on this because they head off the most predictable objections, they offer my frame of reference, and the afford me some license. I was raised by (see if this makes sense) a single mother who was married many times, 9 to be specific. She was badly physically abused, as was I. We lived in a car, we lived in an abandoned house, we lived in poverty, we depended on a handful of people for existence for periods of time, and I was completely steeped in the woman as victim paradigm. Despite the parade of men, I had no father and virtually no guidance whatsoever. To say I went off the rails is an absurd understatement.

So as a married man who started having kids almost immediately, and recently come to faith, I was craving leadership, guidance, help, and teaching, whatever I could find. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that my new found faith had me soaking up Man Up messages eagerly. I’d look forward to each Father’s Day when I would be given some tools that would help me reach my potential as a man, husband, father. I’d then tuck right in and apply them with verve. I jumped from seminar to seminar on marriage and Biblical manhood, whatever was de rigueur at a given moment. Then moved to another state and started attending another church, smaller and growing, and we became a couple that was deeply involved, central even, in that church. We led couples studies and did missions trips and gave deeply of our resources, financial and otherwise. Over five or six years of that I cycled through enthusiasm, elation, and some sanctimony to be sure. I imagined myself extremely well equipped because I knew the entire lingo. I was skilled at pat answers to complicated questions. I stayed with the Baptist church for years, and looking back on all of that is what I draw from as I describe the realization that hit me when the red pill crossed the blood brain barrier. Like most, it was forced on me (a story for another time, but one I would tell the pastor). Things came together tectonically and my views congealed before my eyes.

Dr. Moore, when we discuss the women in church, today, we have to include those who have shown up as adults, where part of suburban yuppie culture suddenly included membership at the local mega church. You know these are present, along with their male counterparts,  especially in large churches. The behavior of this subset of women is easier for us to process partly because of our bias, but importantly because we have to believe what we see with our own (sometimes lying) eyes. That this group will go forth and fornicate or frivorce is easier to know, and just as subject to the pastoral lack of leadership, or misguided leadership as any other. But we can imagine that if placed under better leadership, these women would simply choose to find another church where their choices can be supported, directly or indirectly. There will always be one. Though equally tragic, we need to set these aside momentarily because the proclivities they demonstrate could more readily be explained away by influences from culture that they are still working on shucking. They are an explainable femographic in other words.

(I necessarily sit them aside, not because they are less deserving of sound leadership, quite the opposite, but rather because if the pastor wants he can take this route around the problems I point out. He can point out that we are all works in progress, and he can point out that the male counterparts are in even worse shape which could account for the problem)

So, Dr. Moore, what about all the women who have been raised in the church, raised by solid traditional conservative Christian families, saved in Sunday school at 7 years old, rarely missed a Sunday, have a worn out highlighted Bible, read books on salvation and grace, volunteer, pray diligently and often speak about the promptings of the holy spirit, show massive displays of empathy for the down trodden, and yet they too participate in frivorce, or worse, the promiscuity of serial monogamy?

Imagine that little girl saved in Sunday school. Her father is quintessential, a servant leader, her mother quietly rules the roost passive aggressively, yet by all appearances, even to the girl, it is the portrait of the Christian home. That’s her view as a child, not understood deeply, but warm and comforting as an environment, especially for a little girl. I realize you will likely disagree with my assumption that the mother quietly runs things. It’s not that important.

The girl attends children’s church where she learns about Jesus. She and the boys are shown the gentle Jesus, taught usually by women, couched in, at this age, the image of the tender father. Little girls and boys go through a precious phase of prayer life to this wonderful Jesus. Make no mistake; I have no complaints about that image of Jesus whatsoever with the exception that it is incomplete. That is also ok, but there never comes a point where these children are introduced, as children, to any other aspects of the Savior than the thoroughly feminine one. I read, and perhaps you have to, the story of a man who worked in a company where they produced those color animations that hang on the walls of Sunday school rooms. He was the only man on staff, and regularly found himself wanting to include a couple of images where Jesus was aggressively corrective in his rebuke of something. He asserted that as the kids were getting older, 10 plus, they would be ready for the realization that, well, Jesus is not Santa. The council, he and the women, never reached an accord. They claimed that the pictures of David with his sling, and Goliath standing in the distance, were sufficiently aggressive to convey the potential violence of a just God. The man quit. The feminine Jesus is a recurring theme.

She grows and enters the teen ministry. In the teen groups it’s all about purity, purity framed from the standpoint of girls as the gatekeeper, girls as the ones who would acquiesce to the advances of boys, and girls who must reject said advances because they must wait for the right one, the perfect prince.  Her expectations are built to cast suspicion on boys, and to just know that there is a pure and perfect young man out there. At this point these notions are simple and romanticized. The teen ministries are largely focused, for boys and girls, on self-esteem. The pour through resources and how and why they are special just as God created them, they hear stories of overcomers who were outcasts then found themselves with God’s help. The first overwhelming disconnect between what the church is ostensibly trying to do, and the effect that is manifest in the group they do it for, begins at this point. I will use cutting and suicide as examples of manifestations but you know there are many others. Things we never imagined when we were young are the monsters under every bed now, and somehow the harder the church works to fumigate them away, the more the infestation grows in presence and power. We could stop at this point and discuss just this and do a fair job of explaining the same dynamic I will get to a later. Did any of us learn that pandering to a wailing child does not stop the wailing? It often helps them find more things to wail about.

Finally she gets to late high school or college age and is a regular member of the congregation. Let’s assume she has remained pure (define that as you see fit) because assuming otherwise offers another workaround. She has issues now that can fall into the relational category in adult terms, along with still dragging all the teen angst around. The messages are back to back sets of series with titles like “How to manage your anger”, “How happiness Can be had no matter what”, or even if the titles are more biblical sounding, the theme is Jesus as problem solver in this life. Amidst all this, the notions planted as a teen persist and are magnified. The boys are about sex, porn, anger, workaholism, and poor communication skills with women. The women are about spiritual growth and becoming God’s precious daughter, or worse, Jesus wife (in terms of imagery and metaphor of song and word) despite the world that comes against them daily.

Let’s break down the world that comes against women daily per the amalgam of these messages. Being a mother is the single most difficult job in the whole wide world and no one appreciates mothers the way they need to be appreciated and, chuckle chuckle, and husbands out there could use a lesson in just what they have at home with a good wife and mother. Ladies, you can persevere even while we men can make it much more difficult, chuckle. Let Jesus draw you into His arms because He ALWAYS understands (key word).

She naturally gets great comfort from these promises. Meanwhile she hears messages aimed at men too. These messages are wrapped in ribbons of encouraging men to grow and be what we are called to be as well. There is no mention of any kind of roadblock any woman is capable of throwing before a man. Well, that’s not entirely true. Men are frequently subject to roadblocks made up of women, just not wives. The women that create roadblocks for men are digital mainly, or in the person of an affair. Dead silence on wives potential to be detrimental. There is lots of talk to men about women and how wonderful wives are at supporting men’s spiritual growth. In fact men, you’d do well to learn more about your wives because it will benefit you greatly. They are the barometer of relationship, did you know that X% of relational books and calls to counselors and other signs of reaching for help are done by women? See? They know where your relationship stands. And men, hear me on this….learn to listen to your wives. Heck I got so I have my wife list off not just my weekend honey dos but also the order and manner in which I do them! It just works better that way….don’t believe me? Turn and ask her. Yuk yuk chuckle yuk.

Wow, she must be thinking. All those idiots who are so convinced that the church is harsh on women must not realize all this…this seems like a pretty good place for women to her.

Comes the teaching on Ephesians.

The topic is men love your wives as Christ the church. Now guys, this is a tall order and we cannot ever take it too seriously. How many of you men can honestly say that you actually and consistently reach this level of loving your wives? Note, I ain’t raisin’ my hand. Men, the church has been teaching this all wrong about how you are to be a leader. Dr. Moore, where does this notion come from? Every church I have ever attended and heard Ephesians preaching in, every sermon I have downloaded from church sites across the country, and all anecdotal commentary I’ve read over 8 years, I have yet to find this church that you guys are referring to that is teaching men to lead like ogres. Not only are these messages prefaced with this problem being widespread, but they are universally framed in language that suggests the preacher talking has finally manned up and is breaking with the pack….headed out alone into a church full of men who will blow back strongly at him but he is going to take it for the cause.

He will go on. The preacher will use foot washing as an illustration and he will share lots of anecdotes that show how a man is to be a servant leader. In the context of the messages he gives to men and then sometime later to women, it is obvious that some large share of his effort when preaching to men is not even about men, it’s about what the women are hearing. He is verbally describing a leader in a way that, for those hearing it emotionally, neuters and renders said leader harmless. Like the feminine Jesus from Sunday school, like the Jesus from the regular preaching that is not about marriage, where He is her emotional indulger and he is her spiritual lover and he understands her like Peter wrote that men must do. He will build to the crescendo of, “now ladies, who would not want to follow a man like that?” Answer? None…of course they would follow a man like that. Is it too much to imagine the thought, “but I would not therefore follow a man less than that, a man like those you are talkin’ to about porn and neglect and stuff, men like these I’m surrounded by”.

Once the preacher has followed his template to men, and make no mistake he follows the same template to men regardless the message be it Father’s Day, veterans day, or another, wrapped in encouragement language he tells me what they CAN be (inference clear…what they are not even close to) and lists off the steps to get there, followed by “we have a group of men here who meet on Tuesdays, its confidential and these men are hooked on porn”…like that. After these messages she sees men weeping after the messages that call men out, men responding to alter calls and having hands laid on them, men leaning forward as pleased looking wives encourage them by rubbing circles on their backs. She sees videos of couples where men lay out how horrible they were while wife nods then she adds how finally her husband is the servant leader he was called to be. She gets the message.  Men are fallen but they CAN be better and a good wife is needed to help them…poor dears.

He dares to walk into the realm of submission. This is dangerous, I know, because a friend of mine, Baptist preacher, told me so. He told me in his experience the other preachers he knew well enough to be open with one another would even speak together about how to tread where their own wives may lay ready to pounce. Not a good situation to be sure. But he wades in. He ducks and bobs and weaves, obfuscates and dissembles usually by omission, and leaves two overarching themes standing as practical advice. Those are A. submit to one another and B. You don’t have to submit into sin. She would never marry that, and if she did, she’d either sort it, or she would not be submitting, because after all, she was told not to follow IN sin, which she assumes includes following a sinFUL man. The rest of the sermon is a kind of paraphrase of the one given to the men! It even includes some stern tones and finger wagging, even accusatory language like yours Dr, Moore when you said submission is not “go get me some chips”. You also gave an example of a young couple with the man in graduate school, remember? Maybe you don’t realize it but the idea that came through was her dreams trump other things. I doubt you intended that. You lectured men again on porn, and on how we collectively are ruining women’s self-esteem and that that’s exactly opposite of our calling.

Dr. Moore, can you tell me the part of the message that held any women to account for anything where she is a unilateral agent committing sin?

Our young woman is married now, for five years. The preacher often talks of marriage being for life. But several of your church friends have divorced their husbands. One man had an affair, the others were emotionally abusive or neglectful and probably used porn. She has heard lots of marriage teaching and read lots of books, especially after her friends marriages started falling apart. She recalls how the preacher said a man who takes too much interest in the superficiality of appearance was missing the beauty of the inner woman, and her husband seems overly compelled by her anytime he sees her naked. She was taught, too, that sex is a beautiful gift from God and that a man who wants a warm over at night must tend the flame all day. She knows that the flame is her heart because Peter wrote that men should live with their wives in an understanding way, something a book she read once described as the man must necessarily know exactly what it feels like to be her.  Her husband clearly does not get her; otherwise she would not feel the way she does. And yet he wants sex. And, he is not doing all those tasks that the preacher said were the things that spiritual leaders do in the home. When  he did those things, it made her feel wonderful, when he doesn’t do them, she feels less wonderful.

She read and has heard versions of Ken Nair’s words,

that means that her husband is willing to be held answerable even to his wife as the Holy Spirit alerts her to his character flaws. (from : Discovering the Mind of a Woman)

These resonated, they fit easily amidst the whole of the learning she has done since she was a child.

How can anyone not see that she subconsciously will consider herself the more spiritual person? How can anyone miss that she will perceive men with suspicion regarding certain proclivities, and view men as works in progress….always….with regard to their spiritual growth as it relates to resisting temptation? How can one not see that she would see steeling herself against low self-image as her main accountability impetus? Can we agree that as men, if we were placed under the converse of this teaching we would end up similarly warped? Its incentive based cause and effect. Its amoebic, wallowing away from the poking thing. Its Pavlovian, salivating over the good.

Divorce enters the mind. It may not grow, but it indeed takes root. And if it does not grow, it is not for lack of food and water coming straight from the pulpit. They do not cut down the tree, they prune and shape it. They do not point out the tree is ugly, nor do they mention that the fruit of the tree, children, rot around the edges a little with some going all the way to putrid. They miss the fact that all the outreach designed to address social pathology, addictions, depression, suicide, whatever share a common root cause in the main…..divorce. But they ignore it, because if they don’t, the women will feel put upon. Her friends would feel put upon. She has attended DivorceCare with them, just to be supportive, and found it to be a group where she can be herself and people understand her. How could a church offer up such unconditional support, and then condemn those in the pews who have suffered so much from divorce?

Dr. Moore, do you agree that the culture has encroached on the church? Of course you do. Why then would anyone suggest that one of the main aspects of culture over the last 50 years has NOT had any effect on church. You (the church) spend lots of time on abortion, porn, and gay marriage because they have been loosed upon the church and grown commonplace outside. What of feminism then? How can you suggest that the church is backwards and moving in reverse on gender relations when the culture has shifted exponentially the other way?  Why suggest that this is something requiring a fix because we have it wrong, when its exactly the opposite, that culture has also invaded in this arena as well? Essentially, why are the women of the church suffering under low self-esteem as their most profound sin and men suffering under the real scourges as evidenced by the offerings of support, topically, at any large church? The fact is the church has swung towards feminism too, with the requisite lag. But the actions of the church, seeking to tamp out some ephemeral patriarchy with the goal being healing the genders and saving marriages is an epic fail. Check the numbers. Why? Are men stupid? Are we so fallen we are not redeemable in this? Or…..are you on the wrong track by 180 degrees?

Finally, there is a parallel story with a male protagonist. His story would show him subject to the same set of inputs, but taking on a very different conviction to act. It is actually the boys who remain steadfastly devoted to this skewed message set that try mightily to walk out these false expectations and avoid the temptations men are prone to. They will actually compete with one another in who can supplicate the lowest and emphasize servant over leader the most. That story would end with that man being the divorced husband because he was emotionally neglectful or some other nebulous emotional deficit indicator.

Dr. Moore or whatever preacher has listened is either intrigued, or he is fallen to something he himself pointed out in his message. He called the Godly marriage a true image of Christ, and said that that image invited powers and principalities to come against it because they hate it. I would ask humbly that he consider my words in that context as insidious as that implication may be.

Stepping away from the church some, I would then add some information like that which can be found in one of Dalrocks best summations, Threatpoint, and ask that he consider the power balance along with the expectations built as I have described and look down from 30,000 feet on a people and culture like ours and see if you can connect any dots from which a picture emerges that helps explain what is happening in churches regarding divorce…..and why.

Finally I’d challenge you to look over the statistics that are available on divorce in the church, and divorce in society at large and try to explain them. Based on your words, and the words of countless others, one would conclude that if we could just get the men fixed up we could turn this whole thing around. Its a specious thing because it is correct, technically. The men do need to be turned around, but not just in the ways that you and others repeat, stop the porn, be attentive, etc., but with an emphasis on the part of leadership that is difficult, the part where rubber meets road and the man has to gently but steadfastly lead when the direction is not popular….and here is the action point…..because women do not always make the right choices. Again, women do not always choose wisely, and they will wrap their emotions up in those choices and conflate happiness with righteousness. A man will not serve his way around that. The fallout of this is writ large. The divorce court of the American church is not a parade of cheaters, beaters, and users. Its mostly men who want to stay married, and it would do you well to truly grasp that, without someone filing, divorce never happens.

I more/less said all that to the pastor who actually listened. And I found it worked better than any approach I’d tried before. I use the personal stuff for a couple of reasons, one to shrug off the “bitter divorced man” or “woman hater” or “lacking real personal experience” or “doesn’t understand the Bible” and many other objections. Its cred, simply put. I add lots more detail on the personal stuff when I do this and I think it’s important. We red pill Christian men have to not just lay out facts and figures. We have to not only describe what could be seen as silly pop psych analysis of interpersonal dynamics. We have to explain, personally, why we believe what we do in addition to laying out the facts, and yes even use sympathy or empathy as a tool to open the mind of the listener.


18 thoughts on “A one sided conversation with Dr. Moore

  1. That’s true. Know that I have written this not as some universal recommended narrative, but as MY narrative. The point….you need a narrative to approach someone in church leadership with, and it should be engaging for them, not a speech. This all comes out in the course of a conversation with lots of tangents and sidebars that are unpredictable. It doesn’t work by email nor do I imagine it to be effective as a blog post for the purpose I am chasing.

  2. I’ve read it twice…it is a decent start, but it still kind of works its way to the issue in a round about fashion. It is not very direct. I think you can tighten it up a lot.

    As Friedman would say, quit trying to protect feelings and just say it. Unconsciously I think you are framing the story to be empathetic to the plight of this hypothetical girl and what the church message (i.e. his message) is doing. I think you should just go straight to his mantle of leadership and his duty to do his best to protect his flock from sin and drive out those things that can kill the flock….in other words sin.

    “Dr. Moore, in your sermons what are the sexual sins single and married women are being called to account and repent for?” “Are these sins brought in equal measure as you bring them for men? Such as fornication to fornication (sleeping around – serial monogamy) , porn to porn (Debbie Does – Lifetime & 50 Shades), adultery to adultery (young hot secretary – rockbanddrummer)?” Your message on sin to men is clear and true, but your message on sin to women is muddled and open to interpretation through the lens of personal bias and society’s norms. I think your failure to confront women’s sins as singles and marrieds is doing lots of damage to this body as a whole (Men, Women, Children), and here are the stats to show the trends.

    Why weave an emotional story of a hypothetical girl….just go straight for the sin.

  3. I am so glad my wife is not an evangelical Christian, and as a result, not reading any of these authors. I think what you are writing are well-reasoned responses to this whole line of feminist thought and teaching in the church. We did read some of Paul Tripp’s marriage book called What Did You Expect?, because our church was teaching from it, but my wife couldn’t stand how Protestant the message was. She likes Tim Keller’s book on marriage, but we hardly read it anyway.

  4. Let me qualify something I was saying in my previous comment so that it is clear that I am not maligning evangelical Christians, which is not my intention. I mean that as a result of my wife not being one I get to get out of being subjected to the marriage teachings of these authors being run or used on me by my wife, because she does not read their books. Nuff said.

  5. As a bit of a pep talk, I realize something like this is hard…kind of like me ending my marriage. Hardest damn thing I had to do, it is still hard these many months later. However the courage to do that very hard thing has planted the seeds of an ability to make even harder decisions and confront even harder issues. The courage to start working on how to address sin one sees is admirable. You are ahead of the one who doesn’t know the enemy is in his house.

    I think these blogs are training grounds of sorts… but we are not complete and need to be honed and sharpened.

    I’m still learning ways to do that better. I just found red-pill this past August, and I fully realize I “Burn with Passion.” Which means now that I am single because of biblical reasons, I have been thrust into trying to understand, navigate and hopefully succeed in the current SMP…all while trying to figure out the morality of it all. Not exactly the place to confront church leaders on what their message has and is doing…no matter my credibility. But is winning this up to displaying our credibility in these matters anyway?

  6. @Empath: I am very much male.

    I also thought long and hard about pulling my credibility on these issues into my response, because of something I learned in 5+ years of political blogging. If you speak reasoned truth it does not matter a man’s credibility in such matters. If you bring your story into it there is cause for the sway in opinion to come from who you are and not what is said.

    However, I am in my mid forties, professional engineer. I was raised in the seemingly very fundamental Church of Christ and around the age of 30 (when I got married) as a couple we switched to a Baptist Church. I have only had two church homes in my life, and both of those churches were in excess of 2,000 members. As a young single out of college I was in leadership in singles ministry and came to learn a whole lot about single mothers, divorcees and traditional singles. After marriage I was involved in several ministries and chaired the audio visual committee at my current/last church and for 6 years had a pretty trusted place with out pastor, I ran his sound. I am also well known and very well respected regionally. I have received recognition for achievement in my personal and professional endeavors generally reserved for men many years my senior.

    I am the poster boy for everything the church has taught boys and men about the sexuality. As a 24 year old struggling with the old “You’re they guy I want to marry, but not date” I was offered “I kissed Dating Goodbye” by my church as a tool to possibly help me out in my search for an honorable wife among the divorcees, single moms, and traditional singles that were way more worldly than I.

    As for my biblical reasons for divorcing my wife…well she had a mental breakdown and was arrested on the charge of felony abuse of a child, which caused us to lose our foster children we were trying to adopt. We learned she could not bear children because of a rare medical conditions, so that was a huge blow to me in every sense of what being a man, husband and father looked like to me. I actually forgave her for that, and tried to work through that with her, and she started an emotional affair with a married *woman*, and eventually brought her into our marriage bed and basically said “her you go” and then vilified me for having an affair with her love interest. I actually tried to work it out with her out of obligation to my sacred vows…until a male minister friend of mine helped me go through the countless biblical “Ten Commandments” “Mothers and Children” “Wives and Husbands” she had broken in her open rebellion of mine and pretty much everyone else’s leadership. Don’t know if she cracked up when she couldn’t have kids, but the woman she became after that was not the woman I married. She had given herself over and was taking me down with her.

    Now, I am back in the Sexual Market Place and having to come to terms with that….my dating pool is fivorcees, single moms, carousel riders at or just past the wall…and I’m trying to figure it all out and part of that is figuring out how my 12 year marriage started and why didn’t I hook up with several of those girls in college who were attracted to me…but my alpha and good mating strategies were severely crippled by my church upbringing.. all the while most of the girls I knew were knocked-up by bad boys and those no good boys in college. Including a daughters of church elders and a church minister.

    I am the quintessential church crippled beta who took the red -pill the only difference was I didn’t have kids in the mix and actually developed the stones to divorce my wife.

    I’m telling you how I took it man to man. I’m encouraging you to go bolder.

  7. Sorry man, I once in awhile go badly wrong. Welcome and thank you for posting.

    But do take on board the parts I wrote about the point. The point of the post doesnt lend itself to me having to make a choice between a softer or harsher tone because of its nature.

    I think what I sense is something I can recall from my first years as red pill, the vehement strength of your convictions, I left comments all over cyberland, was even banned from ChristianForums.com. And I communicate with pastors, and found that a narrative like this was more effective than taking it to them bluntly…..trust me….I want to do that.

  8. Apology accepted.

    My first comment is I don’t think the prophets of old sat around and figured out the best way to rebuke their sinning audience….by asking their sinning audience in what manner they would like to hear the truth. They just did.

    Second, yes I am very new to formal red-pill, but my therapist, without knowledge of red-pill, actually put me on what is basically Athol Kay’s MAP without the attraction/sex elements. I actually found red-pill through a search that brought me to Dalrock a week after I filed for divorce. Lets just say I’m am integrating it very quickly. So quickly people notice.

    I realize at this moment I am about as subtle as a blunt battle axe. It is why I have yet to even attempt to have this discussion with my pastor, and it actually part of what is keeping me away from my church. I say part because there are issues beyond red-pill that are germane to my individual situation where they failed me, by not helping me deal with some of these issues, though I came to them. One of the last sermons I went to in person I had filled the sermon notes with notes of how wrong that lesson was. I fear today I would stand up and shout no in the middle of a sermon.

    I’ve got to be tempered. Or do I?

    Lets just say my situation is unique because that progression of man to husband to father, was what I desired and achieved for a few months only to have it all stripped back to just being a man. Many red-pill men have been stripped back to their core of man by other means, my process of the loss of fatherhood and now husband is so unconventional I am totally immune to the feminist assumptions on why I am divorced and not a father.

    However, I still have base sexual needs that were unmet or met in very bad ways by my wife in my marriage. I have to live with that fleshly desire right now (and trying to meet it in the best and most moral way possible) because I dont think I could ever be a MGTOW, so I am firmly in the SMP, and lets just say from the church perspective I have man up written all over me for some frivorcee with teenagers.

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  10. Very well written, you definitely have a calling! Bless you on your ministry to men, may you strengthen them, rebuke them and point them towards pleasing God and not women.

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  14. @Empathologism,

    Good birds eye view of the flaws, weaknesses, and blind spots of evangelical churches. Very thought provoking! Thank you.

    If the scales were to suddenly fall from Dr. Moore’s eyes – what topics would you encourage him to preach from the pulpit?

    Church is more than preaching sermons, what changes to the church would you recommend he make?

    The Amish and Mormons seem more Patriarchal. Have you found any literature which details what they teach at their churches to encourage this?

  15. Bee, well for one, yes, make church about more than sermons, or, 3 songs, a plate, and a sermon.

    Moore must preach at and to women for awhile. He and others must attack divorce as they do abortion and same sex marriage , which Mohler has laid the groundwork for reconciling anyway. It is an urgent task. It would crumble the large evangelical churches. That is fine. What is left and what could grow in its place would be real.

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