Is there hate in the sphere?

This is not drawn from a survey, or a set of questions to determine if men hate women similar to the very interesting one over at  Wapiti. This is, rather, a genuine open ended question. Do men in the sphere generally hate women?

We see the ubiquitous assertions that this is the case in the troll droppings left by the drive by female participants in threads at Dalrock and elsewhere. Those are push button reactions and we needn’t take that seriously. But lately, my blog friend elspeth left a comment here suggesting she had some concerns that a certain piece was motivated by seeing a beneficial effect on a group that is hated. The implication was not accusatory, rather it was a very reasonable cautionary remark that we should not knee jerk any and every time something actually benefits women.  I do not think I do that, and I cannot speak for anyone else, but I do think I get dangerously close to that in the initial thoughts I have about certain things.

This made me wonder about the potential dark aspects of the deserved blow back to especially tradcon feminism, or evangelical feminism and if that is a just reaction. I concluded that yes, I still believe it is, and if heat and light crackle off some articles and comments, if there seems to be nothing virtuous about women even mentioned topically specific, so be it. Case by case, topic by topic, we wring the wrong out of things. Are we animated by finding wrong? Of course, and that is for good reason.

Aside from the silly radical feminists like those Paul Elam goes after, the others, those in our sites, have afforded themselves camouflage by wrapping themselves in churchian or traditional beliefs. They have layers of willing useful idiot men swilling the Koolaide, made by the men of course because making a drink for a man is supplicating. So, to address these man and women hiding behind Biblical doctrine especially, it is imperative that the blunt truth of motive be exposed in all seemingly conciliatory female declarations towards men. After all, its been forty years of accepting faux conciliatory thinly veiled misandry as something that builds men up that has gotten us this far. This leaves men jaded. Lets actually hope that it leaves men jaded and suspicious.

Not reacting to the sympathy manipulations of women who at once claim responsible agency and act out with nothing of the sort is certainly not going to positively influence anyone. Asking hard questions and shining harsh light on faulty logic and emotional derivations is actually perfectly suited to the role men are supposed to be playing. And here is the hard part, even if it comes across as hateful.

In the end, I do not care if some men in the sphere are motivated by hatred, though I think it is minimal. Its a powerful motive for change and it doesn’t hurt a group targeted for advocacy to know that some on the other side find them loathsome, even with exceptions. Rarely would a man in this sphere say he hates all women. A man saying that is as emotionally compromised as the women he is against. But the man who looks hard and deep for the angles that drive traditional females to pitch patriarchal systems, and highlights then that it is just another form of self serving feminism, while he may piss off a major number of women, he is doing needed work that is in no way hateful.

The common thread, one of the biggest ones anyway, is that the men are advocating things that protect men, and happen to be the very best for women, children, and families. if I do not roll over in sympathy for the plight of yet another single mom appeal, it has nothing to do with hate and everything to do with treating that women with the same suspicion I’d treat a child who kept making the same mistakes over and again and then coming with croc tears asking for heartfelt support. That’s not hate.

 

 

 

 

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4 thoughts on “Is there hate in the sphere?

  1. I read Wapiti’s comments. The things he listed are most of what feminists call ‘misogyny’. What’s interesting is this–taking the most extreme sites on the Manosphere I can casually think of, there are only two that could in theory be construed as woman hating–except that they aren’t. Dalorck is one, for basically saying that men shouldn’t even consider marrying the average woman in our culture. Not really man hating, that, simply stating that men should be really discerning and careful about what woman they become involved with and not be suckers about marriage. Simple advice actually. Then there’s Heartiste, which suggests that women like men have sexual desires which they won’t really discuss honestly (which is true) and tells men who want to be Pick Up Artists how to handle this. And there are some MGTOW sites that express a great deal of bitterness.

    Still none of these sites try to take away rights for women. None of them advocate violence, speak with disdain towards genuine suffering or suggest shackling women and preventing them from gaining social or economic advancement.

    Girl Writes What did a piece on why men are avoiding marriage. She pointed out that there’s nothing IN marriage for the average guy anymore, that in fact he’d be stupid to seriously consider marriage. She’s quite right–for the average guy marriage’s risks by far outweigh the benefits. However White Knights, manginas, feminists, tradfems, are all out to shame men into doing their traditional duty with no benefits. This is equivalent to being given the white feather without being called a hero if you do put on the uniform–as though the white feather girls also would at whim call you a coward and useless article if you had just come back from the Western Front on leave, and as though the people back home would stand by their comments and shake their heads at you. Not so great the motive in going if King and Country also think you suck even if you do your very best.

    So yes, men are angry, but that’s not the same as hatred. They’re angry the way that any person who feels ripped off, baffled, and deeply frustrated would be. And in fact the more this anger is channeled into productive behaviour, the less angry men there will be and the more men who have a sense of purpose and pride there will be.

  2. I haven’t read over at Wapiti’s, but I think the hate/passion/angry thing is very confusing in the manosphere for a woman. Men respond to pain with anger and to most women that feels like hate. There’s also some very charming men in the manosphere who pretend to love women, but they’ve slept with and discarded many of them, that feels like hate also. I think I’d prefer the angry, honest man to the charming one who uses women. It’s not a matter of hating women sometimes as it is the level of respect that men think women are worth.

  3. I quite enjoyed Wapiti’s post and if the he things listed make one a misogynist, then that would mean I am a misogynist as well. I doubt it possible given my gender and affinity for it, but I suppose it’s possible.

    Oftentimes when I comment in a hurry I get sloppy with my words, so I do appreciate your giving me the benefit of the doubt here. For example, maybe I should not have used the word “hate”. It is a very strong word and one that is more inflammatory than I meant to be.

    I have never really considered any of your postings or commentary hateful. I was thinking of only two things really. The first is the undeniable reality that the Biblical model for marriage is patriarchy in it’s most basic, oppressive form. Patriarchy from the Biblical standpoint offends our natural sensibilities because it precludes the autonomy that we have come to worship in Western culture.

    My second concern is that we are careful not to throw out God’s clearly recorded design for spiteful reasons, as it often seems those in the Christian manosphere are willing to do.

    By the way, I agree with you that women who scream for the return of patriarchy simply because they are tired of the status quo they helped create and want to be treated as the princesses they are are repugnant. They have no more interest in Biblical marriage than your typical PUA.
    .

  4. At the risk of sounding like a recording that has stuck and is repeating the same thing over and over again, this idea that anything that does not immediately feel good to someone in a group is hate against that group is a nonsense. In Scripture we are told that God disciplines those whom He loves.

    We have to weigh our own motives when we say anything that may cause pain to another. Is the prime reason for any action or statement done because we want the best for that person long term or is it because we are trying to cause pain. We may cause pain as part of aversion therapy. For example, if I saw someone making moves on my wife, I would probably say things that would cause her some pain, especially if she thought that this guy was just being a friend, but I would ensure she understood my perspective on the situation. That would be less bad for both of us than a divorce. It would be painful at the time but it might prevent long term damage to or even destruction of the relationship.

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