The Whole Porn Thing

I’d like to get discussion of pornography out of the way, because it’s there.  The general view of porn in Christianity in North America (I can’t speak for other places) is that it is adultery. Piggybacking this notion is the idea that it is exploitative. Those are the main reasons why it is said to be sinful. I’ve been thinking about this very carefully over the last year, and about what I believe Christian men should be taught about pornography.

1. the adultery argument. The argument used here is realy the rather puritanical interpretation of Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard it was said ‘Do not commit adultery’, but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery in his heart.” Now to me, that’s pretty simple. He’s not talking about sexual desire but coveting. That’s from the Ten Commandments, of course–thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, or donkey or ox. Now I’ve done both–I’ve coveted and desired.

Obviously desire can lead to the potential for sin, which is why we are supposed to guard our heart, but the idea that you’re committing adultery by looking at a woman with desire is simply absurd, has nothing to do with what Jesus was saying. Christians are so afraid of this that it’s crippling. Disciplining your desires is not the same as being terrified of them like you’re some kind of sexual werewolf.

2. The exploitation argument: women who are in pornography (and men–oh right, the men!) are exploited for sexual purposes. Well…kinda. There is something kind of off about the idea of having turning people on as your job. But the fact is the internet makes this complicated. Are all those webcam people out there being exploited? While former exploitation ideas are debatable, the fact is that the whole girl next door thing that used to be a subtext is now THE text. Amateurs overwhelmingly outnumber the pros, and make money off it. So no, I would say that pornography CAN be exploitative–just like any other profession–but that as long as Christians don’t care how much people are paid for hard work, as long as they are willing to receive the fruits of slave labour–this smacks of hypocrisy and ignorance.

But then is pornography sinful? I would say generally yes, but not for the above reasons. I believe that it is generally sinful in that a) its sole purpose is to titillate and that b) it generally does so through depicting promiscuity, prostitution and adultery. and c) in fact those in it are having sex (for the most part) outside of marriage. So this is not the same as say a movie where someone is only PRETENDING to commit an act of violence, or where a couple might be naked and PRETENDING to have sex but really are not. In pornography the sex is real.

I would also say that for some pornography can be addictive can lead to loss of finances, exposure to public shame, and distract a Christian from his faith.

Finally, on a simple practical note, it can become too easy a fix when a man might need to get his life in order. Pornography is a very easy fix–the people in it are sexually rabid, and easy to please. While it can be argued that the same applies to movies–for example we can be moved or frightened by something that isn’t real, and somehow settle it into our mental boxes–I believe that pornography just as romance novels/soap opera type stuff does for women fills an emotional niche, and so I think it can turn us from the real necessity of having a good perspective on our relations with our spouse/girlfriend.

Of course there are those who are not so much affected by this, but with respect to them, they are like those who have no qualms about eating meat sanctified before idols. We shouldn’t lead others to stumble.

Having said all this: I think that the hysteria in Christianity about pornography is distracting and pointless. It just gives wives an excuse to moan and wallow in self pity, and gives their supporters excuses to bask in their approval. I think that we need to turn from the popular books and notions about how awful pornography is and simply see it for what it is.

 

 

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62 thoughts on “The Whole Porn Thing

  1. Jesus’ whole point of equating lust/covetessness=adultry and anger=murder is to demonstrate the equivalence of sin in God’s eyes, not to set an even stricter law. The point is that one sin will seperate you from God eternally regardless of the magnitude of that sin and that all humans are fallen.

  2. The other thing about porn that’s noteworthy is the lengths some (usually women) will go to to try to say how different visual images are from written erotica. Of course that’s because they want to be able to keep a hold of their “righteous anger” over their husband’s adultery in the form of porn while continuing to indulge in their soap operas or romance novels. Anything, wether it is still or moving images, or written word or whatever, that shifts one’s sexual desire and attention from one’s spouse to anyone or anything else is wrong and it’s wrong for pretty much the exact same reason. That one involves actual sex acts between two people is entirely beside the point. That’s an whole different and totally unrelated sin.

    Sorry, even though I’m several months removed from it, the glaring double standards and othe rnonsense on the subject of porn from the “gang” at CF still gets me riled up.

  3. You know I was just thinking something. In terms of the general view of pornography within the Church in North America, I’m not so sure that the view is that it IS pornography. At least not among leadership. Many women desparately want it to be the same thing because if it is, it gives them a “Biblical” out from their marriage. But Christ never said lusting after a woman was the same thing as physical adultery. There’s they pesky little “in his heart” clause that makes it crystal clear that there is a difference between the physical adultery that is Biblical cause for divorce and the adultery that occurs when one lusts.

  4. Porn is like people facing starvation drooling over pictures of people enjoying food. I just don’t see how it exploits the well fed. It’s rather more the opposite.

  5. AR, I ask this with utmost respect, not to sound snarky…..what are you saying here that is relevant to what the writer wrote? What I mean is, the writer states porn is sin, and the writer in no way makes allowance for degrees of sin. So, the way I read your comment I cannot find what it is saying unless it is a straw man statement/argument. I do not think your post was that, nor that simple, that’s why Im asking.
    The issue could be even more separated from what you say by making the assertion, “porn is not a freebee grounds for divorce based on adultery”

    I realize there are degrees to which porn enters various peoples lives. But the church in North America has set it up as, man sees an old “French beach volley ball 8 mm movie” (remember those comedic references from 60’s and 70’s sitcoms) and he is 100% lecherous and not just should be divorced but needs all sorts of rehab.

    Its logical in context of the present church position on men and women. There is no aspect of being a man that has not been extrapolated to its extremes, then than extreme being applied to what is really kind of normal behavior even if some of it is sinful behavior
    Agressiveness>abuse
    Stoic> non communicative and emotionally abusive
    Possesses a sex drive> adulterer

    etc etc

  6. My point was simply to explain upon Jesus’ point, not to argue pornography one way or the other.
    Taken in full context, this verse is no more grounds for a wife to divorce her husband than it is for the husband convict his wife of murder and stone her for her anger. If it is being used to do so, then it is being used wrongly and in full opposition of what Jesus actually said.
    It is an object lesson to demonstrate man’s relationship to God, not man’s relationship with man. It just uses man’s relationship to man as the object of the lesson to do so (sinning against another man or woman).

  7. I have written on this. Porn is a distraction from real life. The American church spends way to much time trying to repress male sexuality in general. It should be teaching what to do more than what not to do. If a man and woman are being brought up to take care of each other in the marriage in all ways fitting their roles. If women are told it is their duty to take their sexual role seriously with their husband, and it is their duty to hold him up as a the leader both inside and outside closed doors, then they would have happier marriages. If men were told that it is their job to lead, and that failing in that leadership is better than than failing to lead, things would be better. Instead we have the negative though shalt nots, and that gives everyone excuse to behave how they want by defining their actions as different than what was just said. The though shalts would be much more productive and uplifting.

  8. Good post. I’ve argued for years that, yes, porn is sin, but the excessive reaction by Christian women speaks of something other than mere moral outrage. Indeed, they strike me as hysterically trying to shout down their own guilt. If they’d cut carbs, hit the gym, and give their husbands sex more than once a month, maybe, just maybe, the market for porn would decrease substantially.

  9. VR pretty much nails it. IME, the church seems to go out of its way to create justifications for women to avoid sex. And gee, “you have all those images in your head. You’re not really making love to me.”

    The “adultery in his heart” thing… I am a bit torn on that. I am maybe not getting the fullness of the arguments here. To me, the heart is the crux of the matter. I do think that the elaboration on this passage has been overdone, but I don’t know just how much.

    In the current environment, one of the most damaging things that occurs from porn is the limitations it puts on the marriage bed. “They do that in porn” is an excuse to not do something that is desired.

  10. “It should be teaching what to do more than what not to do. ” This, a thousand times yes. Not just on porn and sexuality but on pretty much everything. I think someone raised in the modern American church has an overly developed sense of what NOT to do but much of the time very little sense or instruction on what TO do.

    Rampant porn use is definitely a response, an obviously wrong and destructive one,, to the fact that healthy positive sexuality is repressed.

  11. Women, especially in the church, have taken porn to a new level as seeing it grounds for divorce. I told a woman who sees porn grounds for divorce to simply tell women to stop agreeing to make porn. In that discussion I also said the following

    “I’ve just come to the conclusion that a married man watching porn is a direct outcome of the wife’s inability to perform in the bedroom. ”

    The look this woman gave me was priceless but the amen I got from the married man. I felt sorry since I knew he wasn’t going to tell his wife standing next to him that.

  12. The excessive reaction is most definitely either a deflection of attention from their own sins, or a method of control, or more likely some of both.

  13. Its worse than “they do that in porn so we cant”, Ive also read where its such that, say, the man leans over and looks at her, or touches a certain way, or whatever, she shirks him off as a pervert with “where did you get the notion to do THAT? and I’m talking about VERY tame things here that are simply different, not edgy or pushy or odd or controversial.

    As to the heart, the fullness of the argument is simple…..porn use IS NOT grounds for divorce. Period. You agree the church is creating justifications for sexual refusal…..you must also then see that they are offering a tool kit with which to achieve rejection, and the threat point of porn use is a tool in the arsenal.

    Boiled down all and every bit of it is about CONTROL, control of a mans acts, thoughts, deeds and desires. All must be controlled to maximize the empathogasm which is the climactic end game she seeks emotionally.

    Its not materially different from mans sex drive. If folks figure out women chase emotional empathogasms w/ the same verve as men do sex, we’d better understand each other and where the problems come from.

  14. I had this discussion the other night. After being away for a week and a half my “situation” wasn’t understood by my wife of nearly 21 years. I don’t attribute maliciousness or control to her, I think that women are just not wired the way we are so sometimes they simply don’t understand. So, I think that is a factor.

    On the other hand, it does get frustrating when the women focus on the man’s obligation while ignoring how they could help mitigate the temptation. Any more I think that pornography needs to be treated as a masculine problem that should be completely outside of the purview of women. The day that they start taking their marital obligations FAR more seriously is the day they have enough credibility to comment on something that they could legitimately be helping with through their actions and not their words. They should work on the marriage from their side and stop trying to enforce subjection on ours.

    Back to the CF arguments, why should I listen to a woman who is more than likely defrauding her husband about whether or not pornography is adultery unto divorce? (BTW, that place has gotten cartoon caricature ridiculous lately).

  15. I used the example the other day. Did I have to read a book or watch a video to show me how to give you a back-rub or a massage? Coming at this with a pragmatic approach seems to be the best way to deflect this line of reasoning. I think it will feel good and since you are predisposed (for whatever reason) this would really help me today. Or simply ask for help and let her figure out how she can help. I think that many women have simply abdicated responisbility when it comes to satisfying their husbands in this way.

  16. I had this discussion the other night. After being away for a week and a half my “situation” wasn’t understood by my wife of nearly 21 years. I don’t attribute maliciousness or control to her, I think that women are just not wired the way we are so sometimes they simply don’t understand. So, I think that is a factor.

    On the other hand, it does get frustrating when the women focus on the man’s obligation while ignoring how they could help mitigate the temptation. Any more I think that pornography needs to be treated as a masculine problem that should be completely outside of the purview of women. The day that they start taking their marital obligations FAR more seriously is the day they have enough credibility to comment on something that they could legitimately be helping with through their actions and not their words. They should work on the marriage from their side and stop trying to enforce subjection on ours.

    Back to the CF arguments, why should I listen to a woman who is more than likely defrauding her husband about whether or not pornography is adultery unto divorce? (BTW, that place has gotten cartoon caricature ridiculous lately).

    IAL, the control I mention doesnt belong together with malicious in meaning. Its a control born of some form of fear, its a reflex like holding on when you should let go, like struggling when you should stay still….that kind of control. Sure there are those control freaks very overt, and a woman can be that too in other ways, but on the sex thing its REFLEX. an automatic type of control if I am making sense.

    I think mens sex drives make women nervous because they are taught by other women who were/are nervous, and so on, and so on…..Look at how psalms used to speak of sex, look at how the poster “romans” did, and others, who, if the sex didnt meet their approval, it was not legit. There is something funny in all that. Wanna know one way to know for sure that a certain sexual encounter was ok is? Simple…..SHE wanted it. That my friend is always every time sanctified sex.

    If I understood you correctly you were away and well, you “missed” her. This is another funny one, some women will see time away as somehow not counting. What I mean is say I come home after a 3 week trip, then no sex occurs for another week, and I say “its been 4 weeks”. I have heard back on occasion “well, no, its only been 1 week because you were gone those other 3” There is insight into how she views not just sex, but many things, in that manner of thinking things through temporally.

  17. The funny thing is that she missed me not being there, rubbing her feet, keeping a fire burning, doing the guy chores, making her feel secure. She was well aware of the time in that regard, she just has a blind spot when it comes to that. If I initiate and basically do 99% of the follow through then things can carry on (if she is not “predisposed”). I pointed out to her that she wants to have a passive veto but not an active role. She does seem to enjoy the process just not actively participating.

    In line with what Scribe is saying, i think what we want to see is a wife that is part of the solution not another in a chorus trying to identify and condemn the problem.

  18. the church seems to go out of its way to create justifications for women to avoid sex

    Correction: the church seems to go out of its way to create justifications for married women to avoid sex with their husbands

    If a single woman confesses to slutting around, instead of commanding her to repent, a thousand hamster wheels start spinning, creating justifications and excuses as to why it wasn’t really her fault. Normally they don’t go so far as to actuallly approve it, but they implicitly “praise with faint damnation”.

    If a married woman has hot, enthusiastic porn-star sex with an adulterous lover – for whom she lost 20 lbs and bought new lingerie (with hubby’s credit card), once again, instead of commanding her to repent, a thousand hamster wheels start spinning, creating justifications and excuses as to why it wasn’t really her fault, and blaming the husband instead.

    Summarizing…. They’ll go out of their way to excuse pre- or extra-marital sex (for women, anyway… they still correctly condemn this behavior in men). And yet they work just as hard to create excuses for married women to NOT have sex with their husbands.

    Exactly which supernatural entity are they actually working for?

  19. Okay, I guess bold doesn’t work. Let’s try again with italic:

    the church seems to go out of its way to create justifications for women to avoid sex

    Correction: the church seems to go out of its way to create justifications for married women to avoid sex with their husbands

  20. How did I miss the obvious:

    one of the most damaging things that occurs from porn is the limitations it puts on the marriage bed. “They do that in porn” is an excuse to not do something that is desired.

    …. but how does SHE know “they do that in porn”…
    …. unless she watches PORN herself?

    Channeling Sam Kinison: “AAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!”

    This reminds me of my single days, when I had a sympathetic ear in the women’s singles BIble study/gossip session. After they were done reading the Bible, they hung around for refreshments, chatting, etc.. And, as my informant told me, the talk turned to single men, and my name came up. One particular girl MOCKED me for using internet dating websites. When ,my informant told me who it was, I was enraged….

    … and I asked my informant., rhetorically — “How did this girl KNOW I was on matchmaking websites?…….. Because SHE IS TOO; I’VE SEEN HER FACE AND PROFILE! She condemns me as a loser for doing what she, herself, is also doing!”

    We both laughed.

  21. Pingback: Father Knows Best: Act of God Edition « Patriactionary

  22. Your wife not being in the mood to physically reconnect after a week and a half apart is sort of an entirely different thing though. I wasn’t saying that that sort of thing was an attempt to control. I was saying that the whole overreaction to porn was.

    If porn should be treated as a strictly masculine problem outside the purview of women, then couldn’t an argument be made that women that consistently refuse sex should be treated strictly as a feminine problem outside the purview of men be made? While I get where you are going with that thought, I don’t think it could possibly work that way. The man’s porn use does have an effect on the woman.

    On the last, regarding “that other place” I grieve for the marriages that are being destroyed by the advice that’s being given. Sure the most extreme of the bunch were tossed out but in a way that’s almost worse as at least their nonsense could clearly be seen as such. The one’s that are left are dispensing equally toxic advice, but appear to be reasonable so it’s more likely that they are taken seriously.

  23. I don’t think having long discusions concerning pornography with a wife who won’t or can’t look at the sexuality of the entire marriage is problematic. This is increasingly so as the “church” continues to blow this sin out of all proportion while overlooking the contributions of the wife to this problem. Having the women as “accountability partners” is only going to supply them with more ammo to create further imbalance. “You looked at porn, you’re an adulterer, I don’t want to have sex with you….”: now what?

    Honestly, this is one of those areas where men need to “man-up” and realize they are responsible to God and quit circling the bowl in an effort to satisfy their wife. The reason we shouldn’t look at porn is because it offends God, not because it makes us adulterers. My two blog posts concerning Noah where delicately pointed in this direction.

  24. What you guys are saying is true. There is a kind of learned nervousness; add to that the kind of female porn that romance movies and novels represent–the idea that sex and intimacy are involuntary acts of passion. Apparently alone among all other human activities, which are learned and observed.

    So faced with this, one of the first important steps is to have Church leadership bluntly saying “No–porn use is not grounds for separation or divorce. It’s not adultery.” That hump has to be gotten over. It should be treated as being no different from any other sinful behaviour.

    In fact, part of the issue with the Church and divorce is that. The Bible makes it clear that sin alone is not cause for divorce. The only sin–actually committing physical adultery–is highlighted for the simple reason that it is actually a physical departure from the marriage. Stepping outside the box a moment, there’s a simple reason for this: it’s the ONLY thing.

    Consider: abuse? In order for abuse to be a cause, it has to be more than just she shoved him, he shoved harder, or a single incident of temper or anything like that. It has to be proven to be consistent and that there’s nothing the one spouse can do about it. It’s as complicated today as it was then–so I read it thus: abuse is tricky. You can’t say generally ‘abuse is cause for divorce’. It can be–but it generally is unlikely to be because the definitions of it are tricky. Put it this way: broken bones, concussion, starvation, regular beatings–that’s beyond the shadow of a doubt. Otherwise…it’s tricky.

    Consider: neglect? if this is the case then husbands should leave wives (or vice versa, in fairness) if sex is being neglected. Remember the uproar in CF over that?

    I could go on but you guys I’m sure get the idea. The main thing about this issue is to take a stand and say “It’s not grounds for divorce. It’s not adultery.”

  25. Imagine that…..”porn is not grounds for divorce”. Now add this…”sexual neglect IS grounds for divorce”. These two things do belong together. The neglect mentioned is not the occasional headache. Its systemic. Its weeks and months of no sex. Its a aura of aint gonna be no sex, its an overt lack of interest in the spouse as a sexual being, its robbing usually the man of something that resides at the core of his being. you damn right that ought to be grounds for divorce, it ought to also be shameful, and carry stigma. Good luck if you expect those things to come to pass.

  26. Yes. And it should be again….until it returns to where it should have been all along, which is a regular, normal, expected, harmless, and enjoyable part of marriage.
    Sex should just BE…in marriage, not be ADDED….just BE.

    Are folks going to stop looking at porn? I dont know and I dont care, its an irrelevant question, the sex is not purposed to decrease porn use

  27. Its a control born of some form of fear, its a reflex like holding on when you should let go, like struggling when you should stay still….that kind of control.

    I don’t know if you realize how profound this was empath. Really. It’s interesting that Paul admonishes us as wives to reverence our husbands “without fear” (1 peter 3). It’s something I spent a lot of time prayerful contemplating about a decade ago, and it completely changed the way I interact with and respond to my husband.

    Fear manifests itself in all kinds of ways. Most Christian wives are deathly afraid of letting go of the tight grip of control in their marriages. Sadly, they are encouraged by their fellow Christian sisters (and even some pastors) not to submit too much or love with too much abandon. They really don’t know what they’re missing.

  28. When it comes to the question of abuse a HUGE part of the problem is the very “soft mushy” definition we have of the term abuse today. A single incident of anything is not abuse. Wrong, certainly. But a single incident of flying off the handle in anger isn’t abuse. But in a world where things like an angry look or a raised voice is on checklists of signs you are being abused, we definitely can’t even come close to saying that abuse is grounds for divorce.

  29. Not in agreement or disagreement as much as an aside but it seems to be that much of what modern feminism stands for is based in fear that for the most part is entirely unfounded.

  30. “Imagine that…..”porn is not grounds for divorce”. Now add this…”sexual neglect IS grounds for divorce”.

    Actually I don’t believe that sexual neglect is Biblical grounds for divorce. However in a world where vaguely defined “emotional neglect” is seen as grounds, then we have to accept sexual neglect as grounds too. The reality though is that neither is. There is one and only one and that’s physical adultery. As soon as we depart from God’s word on this, there’s going to be a big mess of conflict and contradiction. The fact though that porn is widely accepted as grounds for divorce, as is emotional neglect, but sexual neglect isn’t is just an illustration of how skewed toward women the system currently is.

  31. The is a thread up in that “other place” wherein a man talks about his new marriage to his young bride wherein they are not having sex and she has told him it is because he doesn’t make enough money. That seems like fraud. Doesn’t that seem to rise to the level of divorce since she entered into the marriage intending to defraud her husband?

  32. I agree completely. “Abuse” has become an ambiguous word in the context of marriage. Any expression of displeasure on the part of a husband (except for tears) might be branded abuse.

    My husband is a big guy (6’2″ 215) and even thought he’s never done anything remotely abusive to me, I once had a female relative express concern for my safety when he (justifiably) raised his voice at me. She said he could really hurt me one day. I was stunned.

    Well theoretically he could hurt me, and I’d be lying if I didn’t admit that he can be intimidating, but I kind of like that about him. The fact that he can be intimidating, I mean. I like it quite a lot in fact. The relative is older, so I was very respectful to her when I told her not to meddle in my marriage.

    You’re right Chaz that most of the fears feminism instills into women is unfounded. The fears are there nonetheless. Most of what we fear is unfounded really.

  33. We could have a whole new post here called “The Whole Abuse Thing”.
    There is so much to learn about these thing, or better said, so much that needs to be taught.

  34. The part they tend to leave out is that I would rather die than lose control and hurt my wife. That is one of the most damaging things I could do to our relationship and I am going to be held accountable by God. Evangelical Feminists conveniently forget the greater burden God places on men.

  35. The difference with the fears instilled by feminism is that I think that on some level, deep down, many of those doing the instilling know that it’s hogwash.

    The fact that a completely justified and entirely reasonable expression of anger or frustration causes someone’s first thought to be “look out he may become dangerous” is hugely problematic for me. It illustrates just how far we’ve gone down the “men are bad women are helpless victims of men” mentality.

    If we stop and look at who stands to gain and what they gain by perpetuating and fostering this mentality though, much becomes more clear.

  36. If you enter into a covenant with the intention to defraud the other party that is generally held as NOT entering into a covenant at all. It expresses a lack of good faith which in almost every code of law known to man (including the OT) abrogates the contract.

  37. Is there really much of a difference between “the whole porn thing” and “the whole abuse thing” though? The overblown response to porn and the vague and entirely overbroad definition of abuse really serve the same purposes which is power/control and providing another “biblically acceptable” ground for divorce.

  38. Would you consider writing a post about this – I struggle with this and know it is negatively impacting my marriage. I can’t seem to let go and trust.

  39. Ellie, in truth this is one of those things you need to find a mature Christian woman to help you with. It is a process, learning to let go and trust your husband completely, but it can be done.

    I’d still be interested in hearing empathological’s perspective, however.

  40. As an add on to the advice to Ellie, when it comes to gender relations it’s important to note, that, in my experience anyway, SOMETIMES, the most “mature” women are actually quite young.

  41. I’m glad to express my opinion about a wife needing to let go and trust if that is the query. The thing is though that my opinion on this will be like my opinion on most of the things we machinate about here locally (this and related blogs).
    I am long on observation and theoretical explaining, but short on solutions. There is a reason for that that fits, for men anyway, how I look at most things. I think we humans do what I call, “make work out of work”…meaning we take simple things and we make them into things whole flippin’ books can be written about. This idea runs through almost everything I observe and write about. Its as if just doing things is insufficient. It has to be “proceduralized”, analyzed, debated, defined, over done basically. So in this instance of trusting it is as simple as then……just start trusting. I mean its inside YOU. These feelings are YOURS.
    Think this way, the very notion that there is some mode or manner that will help you achieve trust already is moving the responsibility for doing so outside and away from YOU, and onto this thing that is a procedure or mode or manner that is supposed to help you do it. That means you are still not trusting God….and in trusting God trusting your spouse…it means you are trusting a PROCEDURE that is geared to help you trust God and thereby trust your spouse.

    Used to love listening to Dr Laura handle this calls where someone asked “how do I trust/forget/forgive/whatever..”….How to I handle these negative feelings?”…that sort of thing. Seriously, what kind of question IS that even? She’s say as much as just do it….as trite as it sounds, what else can someone really say and have it be taken seriously by anyone except the person who is looking for something, anything, other than holding themselves to account over feeling a certain way.

    Not trusting IS not trusting God with your life. Forget what your spouse has done, has not done…whatever. This is God we are talking about. He either is your advocate or He isn’t. And let me add, do not make Him into The Personal Jesus (TM) in order to trust Him…..that is a recipe for disaster…look around here and elsewhere for explanations of The Personal Jesus.

    My armchair psychological observation is that people who have a hard time trusting God are themselves not 100% trustworthy. I have no back up for that idea. Its just that the scenario that exists today and how Im ok you’re ok is the church sets women into so incredibly much rationalizing of bad behavior, in themselves or other women….that has to leave some debris in the mind that causes them to see others as untrustworthy. If I spent my days rationalizing….consciously or subconsciously, like churchian women do, some tiny part of my brain would surely have to make me suspicious that others had read my mail and were doing the same lying to self. Who better to foist that on than one’s spouse?

    Sorry for the disjointed rant.

  42. We might almost want to do two separate articles–what does a good husband look like, what does a good wife look like, based on biblical values, which are much more clear than people give them credit for.

    I think it’s important to add to what you said, empath, that a lot of the time Christians are told what not to do as I think chaz and you observed before, but not enough about what TO do. In this case Proverbs 31, Ephesians 5 give very good examples of this. A lot of the time it helps if we focus on what we should be doing as Christians rather than on what others ought to do, and in fact the Sermon on the Mount emphasizes this when it comes to judgement. We do that first, THEN we are freer to judge.

    I think it needs to be said in a marriage that either you should stay or go. If you stay, stay with the attitude that you will base your life on scripture’s values. Forgiveness is not an emotional state to begin with; it becomes so through effort. You choose to forgive, as Jesus said, 70x 7 a day. Forgiveness is simply refusing to to choose to make people pay. You can dislike actions all you want to, but you choose to be good regardless. If you’re going to stay in a marriage, you choose to be a good spouse, to do what is right, pray for your spouse even when it is really hard to.

  43. On the stay or go, but if you stay follow the Bible point all I can say is amen. On other forums we see so many women who are terribly unhappy, married to, to hear them tell it, men who are about a half step above Satan himself who sit there and bitch and moan about how terrible things are, about how his behavior allows them or causes them to be the way they are. If he’s really all that terrible, then LEAVE. Otherwise if you choose to stay, you are obligated to do the best you can to follow God’s instructions to you, completely independent of how bad the other person may be.

  44. Pingback: LIGFY – November Savings Time | Society of Amateur Gentlemen

  45. Your husband is greatly confused about porn addiction and the fact he believes there is nothing wrong with it, tells me he is in great denial. That is a lie fed to him by the master of lies himself. Anytime a married person looks at another with “feelings of lust” it is considered adultery of the heart and mind. What a man thinketh he is. Your husband is committing adultery in his heart, which is just as inappropriate as the physical act.

  46. Who are you addressing here, exactly?

    And by the way, you are not understanding that scripture correctly. It’s a sin, but it’s not adultery. Adultery is only attached to it to enable condemnation and then for wives to consider leaving their husbands.

  47. If you don’t mind my input: I think it is much the same is taking up our Cross daily. We have to decide, to be deliberate in our forgiveness, in our trust, in our faith. It isn’t your husband you are ultimately trusting, it is God. You won’t have peace until you trust Him and when you do trust God then the rest becomes a lot easier. If you don’t trust God you cannot trust a mere man, even when men fail (and we do) you can still know that God is there for you (Romans 8:38).

  48. While not making any attempt to justify porn use, I have always been a little indignant at the condemnation women hurl at men for using it. As has been mentioned many times before, many women try to equate it with adultery and its being legitimate or even Biblical grounds for divorce. It is actually covetousness in my opinion if the user takes it that far, but oh well. But along the lines of casting the first stone, could these same women say that they have never coveted, never had sexual fantasies involving someone they were not married to? While watching movies, reading romance novels, soap (sap) operas, feeling a little too friendly toward a co-worker or other contact, and such like? They must not fantasize, and never have, right? Would they admit it anyway? If they did admit it, how could they rail on their husbands?

    And if porn use is equivilent to Biblical adultery, how many times would one have to commit adultery for it to be grounds for divorce? Only once right? So using their own definitions, how could they possibly justify the casting of stones at their husbands? Sort of along the lines of “Thou that teachest not to steal, dost thou steal?” For the most part, everybody is guilty then, and everybody has grounds for divorce. (I apologize to, ahem, any perfectly innocent people that may feel wrongly acused here.)

    How would you catch a woman coveting (fantasizing about) a man she wasn’t married to, you probably won’t catch her with naked pictures because if she had them, that would be porn, an equivalent sin, blowing her hypocritical standards and meltdowns right out the window because it would be a direct apples to apples comparison, while the pot calls the stove black.

    My impression has always been that it’s not just about righteousness, what is Biblically right, or in this case, wrong. In fact, unless one’s wife is obviously Biblically righteous and pious in general, (a righteous wife wouldn’t default her husband or be unsubmissive, right?) I doubt it has very much to do righteousness at all. It simply makes her feel diminished. Diminished how though? Less valued, less important including sexually, having less leverage, less power, and less control perhaps?

    Anyway, I just read a seriously good article on this topic at the Red Pill blog site, there are some excellent points made, here: http://theredpillroom.blogspot.com/2012/11/of-objectification-solipsism-and-glass.html

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