Maximum Overdrive, The Invention of Sacrifice

Over at Christian Men’s Defense Network poster maximum wrote a post that was the very embodiment of the churches admonition to men as it relates to how we comport ourselves in marriage. We have read it and heard it over and again for decades, along with the scripture that backs it up. He described the servant sacrificial leadership that is de rigueur in the church today, the same lesson you will get if you attend pretty much any protestant church today.

I responded that he was putty in the hands of today’s church. then he said:

Empathologicalism why is it I felt you would respond the way you did! Have you not seen me post my absolute distaste for the IRS 501 c3 churches of present day? I listened to what you have to say and most of it is woman bashing. Maybe you should read the Song of Solomon. I do agree there are times when a man needs to be the leader and put his foot down in a marriage, and there are times when he needs to be understanding, but most of all he needs to “rule his house well”. However beating his bride over the head will get a man no where.
1 Corinthians 7:3 Let the husband render vnto the wife due beneuolence: and likewise also the wife vnto the husband. Bet you would like to rip that one out of your bible. I will give you one you will like. Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, euen as Christ is the head of the Church: and he is the sauiour of the body. and this one 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would haue you knowe, that the head of euery man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. Now the question “What did Christ do for the Church”? Didn’t he lay his life down for the Church? How many for you would lay your lifes down for your wifes, or any other woman? No BS put yourself in the line of fire and die in the flesh for a woman. I’ve seen to many big mouths run their mouths then hide behind a woman! Then want to run around the house like he is a God!

Ephesians 5:25 – Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Empathologicalism that is sometimes even a sacrificial love! That didn’t say be her door mat, or slave! No normal woman would respect a man like that. To summize what I have seen on this site, you don’t have issues with women as much as you have issues with the word of God.

I’m as sure as the grass is green you will come after me, just to keep fueling that pride, the very thing that keeps you from truely understanding women.

1 Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

In light of the recent discussions here about frivolous divorce, and even divorce with grounds, and how it should hold a position of primacy as a manosphere topic, maximum has afforded a platform from which we can get back to first principles.

Maximum frames it up as men must die to self and be servant leaders and stand in the line of fire for women, putting her needs and those of his family above his own. He offers scripture to support that. And guess what, so far so good, the words he writes are true. But his mistake and the mistake of the entire churchian complex is to juxtapose these admonitions against a raving ego-maniacal lunatic man running a command and control structure, forcing mindless obedience and a wife to behave as a(a favorite term of theirs) doormat. He/they MUST use this comparison, because if a tiny sliver of light finds its way in between these two positions, his vision of the servant leader, and his alternative painting of me/us as maniacs, that sliver of light may illuminate a truth that he is extremely uncomfortable with because it will make him have to stand against the one authority that he follows almost as unquestioningly as he does God. That is the authority of his wife, and by extension The Christian Woman.

As I said, the words are true. Its the specifics of function where it goes wrong. Its the lack of examination of the principles and the lack of testing the function to see where it leads that leads him/them astray. Its much better to just repeat the scripture and some general catchphrases about serving because those are universally pleasing to the women and in most men’s experience they are the only safe way to cover these topics in mixed company. The consequences of even a hat tip in another direction are……you must be an ego maniacal control freak demanding obedience from a doormat.

The frame is portrayed by preachers and Christian men that are not preachers alike as a scenario where most teaching on submission is overdone in the direction of obedience, man as BOSS, not as leader. Somehow they seem to actually believe that this IS the predominant teaching and belief set. In fact it is crucial that they believe this because without it they cannot INVENT SACRIFICE. I will explain.

Assume it was true, that the church was destroying marriages by turning men into ogres, and that the momentum had been building that way for decades, and that women were being pushed so hard that they had to divorce lest they live under tyranny as such. Now imagine you want to help and you know that most men feel that the ogre way is the best way. If you came out with a genteel message about servant leadership, it would be courageous. You would lose respect and be ridiculed by men across the church community. If you were a national Christian leader you’d be publicly derided. If you are just a regular guy you’d by derided by men in your sphere.

In other words, to convey this message would be…….a sacrifice. How many times do men have to really really sacrifice anything anymore? We don’t find bullets to step in front of, and while sitting through a chick flick is tedious, well, that’s sacrifice today. So, they find a sacrifice to make and create a reality in which to make it, because it is no more the case that ogre teaching is the widespread norm than the moon is made of Ben and Jerry’s.

The one fact that these men cannot admit is that generally, men want to make women happy. Men want and like happy women, and men ARE INDEED willing to sacrifice, men like to sacrifice, men like to lead through difficulty and take burdens on and bear the brunt. It is easy to see that they know this too, intellectually, but that they have walled off a fake reality in which the cognitive dissonance is not uncomfortable. They recognize men like to bear the burdens when they admonish men “don’t fix, just listen”….that is men being men when they want to fix things even at their own expense.

The obvious truth is that their way of believing is the teaching and has been the teaching for decades now. If they admit this, it removes the illusion of courage and sacrifice from their proclamations. They lose the appearance of invented courage and sacrifice.

At 30,000 feet you should be able to see that the church has moved consistently closer to egalitarianism, while preaching that the church is teaching men to be ogres, and then they tell men to step up and dont do what those other guys are saying. meanwhile, families are destroyed. Either men really are stupid and morally inferior, or something else is wrong. the something else is that women are being deceived. They are just as prone to it as anyone else, and if men sat under teaching that was the reverse, gender wise, then WE”D be deceived. I mean heck isn’t that what they are all saying was the problem? men were deceived into being bosses not leaders?

To understand whats being said, agree or not, you have to let go of your delusion of who I am , who we are. Then you will at the very least understand whats being said. I wouldn’t believe anything guys like you are assuming I am said either. But I’m far from that guy who thinks money and cars woo women. never have never will think that way.
All thats necessary is to consider that women have their own proclivities. That’s it. And by not ever addressing those men are not leading, we are pandering. Pandering is masquerading as sacrifice.

33 thoughts on “Maximum Overdrive, The Invention of Sacrifice

  1. Maximum responded as below, and Ive invited him here to discuss this:

    Now this is getting interesting. I used bible quotes from my 1611 kjv and at that time there was no womans rights movement, and women couldn’t vote, own land or even speak out in church. I didn’t write the word of God, I can only follow it, or face judgement of the Creator.

    I can not and will not be held accountable for other peoples actions, or lack of actions. I can only tell you that I DO NOT have any of this marriage/women problems you speak of. I deeply understand the bible from my understanding and my wifes. Case in fact “I rule my house well and have my children in all subjection”. I don’t go to mainstream churches nor do I give my 10 percent plus to them pulpit pimps. As for most mainstream Pastors it takes all my energy to keep me from busting their head and kicking their arses!

    At this point I have only a few questions. If you and the men here are truly the men of God leaders. Why can’t you command your wife from love to call you Lord such as Sarah did to Abraham. Do you not have the full armor of God to make just one woman in this whole world want to worship you, to love you and joyously obey your every little wish. If the man is the head of the woman and you agree the bible is correct. Why are you men NOT standing up and being the man God called you to be? Don’t give me the BS women are bad today unlike the past, it goes all the way back to eve! When men start acting like men and not like women, women are attracted.

    I listen to what you guys post here and i ask myself “If I was a woman what do you have to offer me”! I know as guys your going to start thinking money, house, cars. I’d hate to burst your bubbles but that isn’t what drives women. Maybe you should learn to walk a mile in the other persons shoes before casting judgement!

  2. I thought I already said….22 years, 4 kids, same wife, married as we speak

    Which Im sure is not what you expected.
    Grew up poor, single mom, am in bankruptcy as we speak….no flash about cars and money, thats so ridiculous it doesnt deserve a response frankly.

    You must allow for the huge area between the ogre position and your position and stop painting me and others and even reality itself just so it fits your views. Swallow the red pill, and be amazed. 8 years ago, I would have been writing EXACTLY what you are, its not revelation, its not new, its not bold….its the norm, its “conventional wisdom”

  3. Ok tell me how you feel i need to treat my wife?

    Because i’m married 21 years and 6 kids, and don’t have any of these Jaded male problems. The reason I looked for a site similiar to this one was to expose Joel and Kathy as frauds. I totally infiltrated their site!

  4. You stated “You must allow for the huge area between the ogre position and your position and stop painting me and others and even reality itself just so it fits your views. Swallow the red pill, and be amazed. 8 years ago, I would have been writing EXACTLY what you are, its not revelation, its not new, its not bold….its the norm, its “conventional wisdow”.

    In a time of universal deceit,
    telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
    George Orwell

  5. By the way you did a real good job of taking my post out of context them moving them over here. This is the same thing Joel Davisson does on his site.

  6. Maybe I’m missing something here. But how is a strong Christian man to lead his wife as an “equal” partner on a leash. I look at being a leader, being responsible AS A SACRIFICE. I’m the one who is responsible, I have to make the hard calls and I can’t expect my wife to even like all of the decisions I’m making on our behalf because I love her. Maximum, figure out a way to take away the responsibility of leadership and maybe we can start talking about egalitarianism.

    Also, Emp, a long overdue post in the hopper for you perusal.

  7. I look at being a leader, being responsible AS A SACRIFICE. I’m the one who is responsible, I have to make the hard calls and I can’t expect my wife to even like all of the decisions I’m making on our behalf because I love her. Maximum, figure out a way to take away the responsibility of leadership and maybe we can start talking about egalitarianism.

    That was excellently stated. I agree 100%.

  8. Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord

    Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

    You guys like them, but what do you do about this one?

    Colossians 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

    And this one must be hated!

    Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

    Or does the bible not mean anything here?

  9. From what i see here is many of you men will wake up one day and your wife will leave you and you won’t know what happened. When her interest level drops and she starts following her heart your done. Then you can post in here about how bad of a woman she is. Mark my words your needs are NOT her needs!

  10. That is understood Maximum. The problem is that “love” is so often equated with egalitarianism that when you start emphasizing those verses in this out of balance era it’s easy to mistake someone espousing them as a J&K clone who isn’t serious about confronting Evangelical Feminism.

  11. max
    You are all over the place. I would join you in exposing Joel and Kathy, but the things you say seem to me that you would agree with them. They paint any man who doesnt supplicate to women as an evil ogre.

    I never said anything about you and your wife. How did we get on that? You are doing when women do and taking everything into your personal experience as if Im attacking YOU. Im not, I do not know you at all. YOU are assuming things about me friend. And you are dead wrong.

    IAL laid out my feelings on this perfectly, leading and being responsible IS sacrificing, pandering is not, and whether you even realize it or you dont, your posts actually come across like that. You SEEM, and maybe Im wrong, but you seem to be a lite version of J and K. If Im wrong then Im wrong.

    But reflexively telling someone they are about money and cars and bossing women and whatever makes you look that way.

  12. See, here you go again, this is flip floppin all over the place…I cannot tell what you believe. You need to stop with assuming you have a clue who we are and what we believe.

  13. Well, you can start reading the many, many things already written, or you can wait until I have time to reiterate the position I have spent the last 6 months coming to. The latter might take a while.

  14. I suspect that #4 is a troll. You’re inconsistencies appear to be intentional, only bounded by an apparently limitless ego.

  15. No I came in here in good faith, and have known for years the feminist agenda is a severe problem and societies have fallen because of it. Being a militiamen all my life and the severity of the marxist agenda (The 10 planks of the Communist Marxist Manifesto) on the American soil, is what had me infiltrate J&K’s site. i agree with much of what you say, but i have a real problem the mindset.

    Look at what caused this empowering women, and what caused the Government to become the husband to the women today. What is the source is your first mission. When you figure it out the rest will fall in place. What i have said here is no different then what Thomas Jefferson would have said about his wife.

  16. I agree, it is amazingly inconsistent. He comments on CMDN with a white knight lecture, then comes here and says he is looking for a place to out J and K, he accuses us of being all sorts of different made up caricatures of Christian men, coincidentally the same caricatures the church uses to drill male supplication into us, and so forth.
    Seriously, the topic is the topic, the words on the page are what we have to go by, what use is it to assume so much? Max, the things you are arguing against are 90% made up, none of it appears anywhere here, nor any evidence of it. You are bought in to the church narrative of men, and the church is just wrong

  17. Spell it out, or don’t. Its not my place to figure out.

    You have a problem with a mindset…..but you have no idea our mindset, you are falling so easily into straw man arguments its absurd.

    I have no mindset that materially differs from what youve written. I just think emphasis, function, and the context in which it is presented is badly messed up.

  18. Straight from Elder George and his book “Dear Brothers and Sisters, Gender and its Responsibility”, the Mankow article I mean. Why are you arguing so hard with your allies max?

  19. And you wonder what is wrong with this country. This land will be judged! You can’t even walk in my shoes for even 2 hours, and then you want to tell the world how to be a man.

    You will lose your families and land and men like me will die fighting doing what you should have been doing all along!

  20. Yeah, I’ve seen this my whole life. You think you have an inside track of some sort? It would be good to get in some counseling on this, the delusions of grandeur might be symptomatic of a deeper problem.

    The country is falling apart, how does a man like you “fight” for anything in the ensuing anarchy? Why do you presume to be doing something that we are not already? I have enough supplies to feed my neighbors for at least a winter and have organized food shipments to up the storage food in my region. I have worked hard to establish sustainable agriculture with non-hybrid seeds, I preach the Gospel and against “Churchianity” and the government.

    But yeah, you have us all figured out.

  21. IAL I agree, and this is not some trite remark like “hey you need help”….
    How did max blunder in here? Max, if you had any idea who we are and what we have done maybe this would not be as incongruent as it is.
    But we needn’t be convinced about the state of things, we see max, we see. If you want to evangelize with this information there are fertile places for that, places where you are not preaching to at least partially, the choir.
    We are all pretty sharp folk round here, most of us well above average, and hard tested.

    I might suggest a different tactic, as I have tried showing people things, not quite with the same verve but definitely with no strategy save an ideological scorched earth. Likely the blind wont see anyway, but you really are off base.
    Seriously, if you want a dialog lets have one. But stop with this.

  22. Schaeffer Cox? I didn’t think they let you have internet access. Wow, some people don’t learn.

  23. You asked how do men like me “Fight” I resist in every way possible. How about using the word of God! Bring what is done in darkness and bring it to light.

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